Cd662

firglock, glad to see you're shooting ICORE. I heard about the club up in your neck of the woods. I think you will enjoy the match a lot. Just so you know, I think the MD for the New England Regional match will only recognize the Limited 6 subcategory if there are a minimum of three shooters for that category. The MD for the East Coast Regional match generally does not recognize Limited 6. Historically, that match does not give out any plaques for people that place, opting instead for a prize table. Just FYI before you come make the trip.

The safety officer isn't supposed to stop a safe, legal action from being committed. That kind of interference would constitute in a reshoot opportunity for the competitor. The IDPA rule states that the firearm has to be unloaded under Safety Officer direction. If a competitor starts to unload and show clear, the safety officer cannot prove if the shooter is actually finished shooting or not. There would be no way to prove if the person felt poorly about the stage and was thinking about giving up, or if they wanted to take 5 seconds to reload, or planned on continuing shooting and wanted to admire the scenery for awhile before doing so. When a competitor quickly unloads and shows clear, it "does not count" if the SO does not call the commands and call the range clear. If a competitor rushes through the process and quickly holsters, that doesn't make the range clear. The SO would have to repeat the "If you are finished, unload and show clear" command. By USPSA standards, once the competitor starts the unloading process AFTER this command is finished, he or she cannot shoot any longer. To my knowledge, IDPA doesn't have any rule like that. If someone holstered and walked down range to look at targets, that in and of itself is not an illegal or unsafe action. I would follow the shooter and repeat the command. Returning to the scenario, as I stated earlier, I would uphold a DQ. The biggest offenders of that rule are new individuals. While its overkill, I also usually ask the proper range command if an incorrect one isn't given. For example, if someone says "Gas it up!" I'll ask, "Load and Make Ready?" and wait for affirmation.

That line of logic makes no sense. The competitor can rack the slide of the pistol while attempting to complete the stage. That is a sanctioned, legal action. Once the start signal goes off, he could just stand in the open and rack his slide 18 times. The stage would be scored accordingly and he wouldn't have violated any safety measures. There are no action pistol disciplines that allow you to just whip out your gun and load it whenever. In almost every other shooting discipline, there is some manner of allowing people to load their guns at a certain time. Thoughts is that there are still way too many commands and people still end up inserting their own, even at major events. What is worse is when this turns into a race to say whatever, and then the competitor is trying to hear what the SO is saying because its not a regular safety command, and then they get short beeped, eg "Facing downrange, load and make ready. Does the shooter understand the course of fire? The shooter understands the course of fire, Is the shooter ready? The shooter indicates that he is ready standbyBEEP" That one is pretty common in these parts.

Just remember that some one's for fun "realistic" scenario does not constitute as "training".

Why have a rulebook if you're going to make up the rules?

Robertbank - Really? You really think a think tank at Smith and Wesson rubbed their hands together and developed a dastardly plan to list the barrel length of the Model 66 by an extra 0.05 to make it illegal for IDPA to force people to buy L Frame? Why would Smith get out the tooling for the K-Frame again and make that investment, and then not want to promote it? How would "robbing" sales of the K Frame to the L Frame make any real financial different to Smith? The 686 is probably the most popular full size S&W revolver for the general market right now, aside from the goofy novelty guns.

Correct call, regardless of if the gun had ammo in it or not. You can never prove that someone forgot or didn't forget to engage a target with a round in the gun. A lot of people are quick to levy the threat of FTDR. I've even heard people at sanctioned matches say "If you don't do insert thing here, you are getting an FTDR".

I don't understand how this is such a problem right now. Every winter, it's like there has to be some sort of dramatic thing to discuss on the internet. I think people get stir crazy. I don't think a stage round count should have to be divided by 6. The only real thing is that the stage shouldn't be remarkably difficult for 6 shooters to shoot; that is, you shouldn't have some sort of crazy memory stage, for example, that is logical for an 8 shot gun but extremely complex for a 6. While all the Classic guys are competing against each other, it would dissuade people from wanting to shoot Classic even more. ICORE needs to try to expand the divisions and Classic is the weakest, which is why I have strong doubts about a moon clip 6 shot division magically taking off.

3 SPECIAL RECOGNITION CATEGORIES 3.1 Special Recognition Categories (SRC's) are special categories approved by ICORE to be used at matches to provide another means for a competitor to be recognized for his or her achievements. Recognizing SRC's is not mandatory at ICORE Events, but at the discretion of Match Director/Organizers. 3.1.1 Age requirements of Special Recognition Categories are defined as: 3.1.2 Junior Competitors must be under the age of 18 on the first day of the match. 3.1.3 Senior Competitors must be 55 or older on the first day of the match. 3.1.4 Super Senior Competitors must be 65 or older on the first day of the match. Presumably, the SRCs used at the IRC are approved. Earlier this year on the Revo Nation forum, I suggested to ChrisC that the Limited6/Open6/all that other stuff receive official mention in the rulebook. There is no guideline here for how to recognize said achievements. The only requirement per this verbiage is that an SRC has to be approved by ICORE. A regional match could get approval to run Limited 6 as a Special Recognition Category and give out however many plaques or other prizes they deemed appropriate.

ChrisC is the rules director so it may be out of his jurisdiction but I think there are some marketing things that can be done. Perhaps I'll start another thread about it.

That logic still makes zero sense. "One person designed stages with six shots required per target, therefore, I bet the cat's out of the bag now and matches everywhere will suffer from this problem. Implementing another 6 shot division, when one already exists, will alleviate this risk." The fear is dilluting an already small population of shooters. About half of the sanctioned ICORE matches are well attended, and the other half are not. If the people REALLY WANTED to shoot their 6 shot moonclip guns, wouldn't they be doing it already? There would be a tangible demand. If the SUBCATEGORY is not being filled when it already exists, how will adding new classifier statistics change the attendance rate? If there was no recognition potential for Limited 6, that would be a different story, but it already exists and it is not being utilized. Another poorly attended division would also dillute the prizes at the IRC, and presumably it would change the "cash money" plaque payouts at regional events. If there's a way to make it work, people should with the tools they have. It's another topic entirely, but I have not noticed new USPSA Revolver shooters from the rule change. It's the same people as before, shooting 627s instead of 625s.

I saw the stages. You said that your concern was that 6 round neutral would somehow result in stages where you shoot targets 6 times a piece. That's not how ICORE matches have been interpreting "6 shot neutral" so it's an unfounded concern. I think everyone should go back and read Chris' post. 6 shot neutral does not have to mean "Every array has three targets with 2 shots each" on them. There are a lot of options to do interesting things, but it's up to match directors and staff to build interesting stages.

The Postal match is supposed to be easy to setup to accommodate all different types of ranges to maximize participation. I haven't shot any matches where there were stages that required six rounds on a target, with the exception of classifiers that required it. Everyone is going to define "6 shot neutral" differently - it should mean that a stage can be shot in a logical manner for 6 shot guns. That is to say, there shouldn't be a 7 round array, and then an 8 round array, and then another 7. Four straight 8 round arrays would make more sense, because 24 is divisible by 6. If people started making crazy stages that were difficult for 6 shot guns, Classic would probably die. I think the constraint aspect of stage design is a non-issue.

Chris - Thanks for starting the thread. I think the emphasis of the topic of the correct but the approach might not be. ICORE advertises itself as the revolver shooter's game. I really like the sub category options that exist because they are logical. There are plenty of people with 625s. There are occassional people with 6 shot moonclip guns with red dots on them, mostly for plate matches. There are plenty of people with snub nose guns. They should have a place within the ICORE competition structure. Yet demand for 6 shot anything remains low. Classic has been struggling for awhile and that would be the quintessential "Entry Level" division - think of all those K and L frames sitting around. At the IRC, there were only 8 competitors for the 6 shot Limited Class sub category, and 2 for Open 6 shot. At other matches, those sub categories aren't even offered. I think part of that is due to the size of the IRC and the fee structure. People spend a lot of money to get out there and most people want to focus on one gun and shoot it well. I shot two guns last year and I was OK, but it's definitely a marathon. I certainly wouldn't want to spend all of that money for the Limited 6 belt buckle. I think an entirely new division is too aggressive. However, I think there should be some sort of recognition encouraged for the sub categories to get them to grow. ICORE doesn't have any awards policies so it's up to match directors to choose what they want to do for awards. I do think there should be an award for the head of a subcategory as long as there are 3 people in that group - it's IDPA's old policy, and it's also how an MD in this relative area does his ICORE awards. This doesn't have to be extensive or extravagant. I like how ICORE does the cash money plaques, a sub category award could be the same sort of thing. Go to the dollar store and pick up a picture frame for 1 or 2 bucks. Print out an award template you designed on Photoshop onto nice paper. Put a cardboard backing on there. Bam, you have a shooting award for 3 or 4 dollars. NINJA EDIT: There should be more ICORE matches, in general, especially at the state level. I've been trying to get places around here to do it. That would show the true demand for something like a new division. If there was a huge pool of shooters, I would even go so far as to host a special event where only 6 shot guns were recognized. Right now, anything ICORE in this area seems to be struggling, never mind novelty things.

SeanC is obviously incorrect about "lightly contested". As the coveted Limited 6 National Champion, I had to beat Miculek, Wolf, Olhasso, and Lentz. I beat them so bad that they all removed their names from the scores, hence you can't see them. That's how bad the beatdown was. But for real, Limited 6 and provisions for other sub categories based upon demand already exists. If it's really bothering people that much, just expand Limited 6 into a "real" division. Classifiers could be based off the Classic scores. It seems good in practice, but I suspect people generally would rather shoot 8 rounds instead of 6. Classic was the first true 6 shot division for ICORE, championed by a speedloader revolver guy. Classic is universally the least popular division. I would like to see something different done with the other categories. It's a lot of money to invest in shooting a 2nd gun for a full match. Maybe have a side match with simple stages available to shoot for second guns. No one except one guy was willing to shoot a 3" speedloader fed gun at a major match that cost a lot of money to go to. If it only required 150 rounds and didn't interfere with the main match and had a bit of clout to go with it, I'm willing to bet that people might be willing to give it a try.

If you want to write a book full of your pro tips regarding revolver work, I would buy it.

Aaron - Why? Are you talking about for fun at a local match or at a sanctioned match? Why would you spend roughly 100 dollars per sanctioned event so you can get destroyed (due to scoring inevitability) by some autoloaders? This is a mirror of the USPSA Revolver discussion. Racinready - You are a solid revolver shooter, I would expect you to beat local goobers. Could a USPSA Grand Master in Revolver beat a similarly skilled USPSA Grand Master in Production? Ruling out favorable course designs, probably not. Three extra shots is a lot of extra shots. You're a USPSA Master, if I'm not mistaken. You shoot well and I give you all the credit in the world, but if someone has three more bullets than you, its not a level playing field. I beat people shooting SSP, ESP, or Production all the time while shooting my wheelgun. It doesn't mean that I'm particularly good, it means they're particularly bad. IDPA club matches are supposed to allow the "Not for Competition" division to accommodate weird guns that could possibly be used for carrying purposes. All of the 625s fit in that role. It's the same thing as shooting Revolvers in USPSA in a non-Revolver division. If people just want to participate in the game with a 625, then you don't care about how to do it. The ESR participation as all of IDPA's large scale events has been ridiculous. I don't really care if they keep it or leave it, but reality has to be acknowledged here. People don't want to shoot ESR. For you people that want to save it, do you shoot ESR regularly at IDPA sanctioned events? Where are your names on the rosters? It could be regional, but I don't see a lot of ESR happening in the northeast (including NY and PA).

First of all, to the guy that mentioned he can't use a replacement gun, as someone already said, you can. I did so with a revolver at Area 7. I think a standards stage like this is an accurate way of determining shooting ability. You can either perform or you can't. If your L10 GM barely shot a 40%,, he or she has particular abilities and is not really a well rounded shooter.

I am overhauling all my gear over the off season with new main springs and reworked actions. I don't know how long my firing pin is because I never removed it. The gun has probably had two previous owners so I wonder how many thousands and thousands of cycles have been on that one firing pin. On the one hand, if it's not broke, don't fix it. On the other hand, if the Power Customs firing pin is AT LEAST an equivalent to the factory, I don't suppose it would be a bad idea to install. I just don't have the punch to make it happen.

Has anyone actually tried one of these? Someone told me awhile back that they're marketed as "extended". I was curious how much longer they were compared to the factory, old style firing pin noses and if anyone saw a tangible benefit (decreased action potential) by using them.

SOs should never have deviated their attention from where the muzzle or trigger finger were to begin with.

ESR should go. People don't want to shoot revolver as it is, nevermind an expensive novelty revolver that can't really be used in any other action pistol game and that recoils like hell. There's hardly anyone that shoots the division as is. The only person that absolutely dominated it was, of course, Jerry Miculek, who was obviously shooting it for sponsorship reasons. Would he really fly over to Springfield to beat up on like, 3 other random ESR guys? Aaron - If we're getting rid of recognition for 2 or 3 competitor divisions, SSR is going to have to go too. It generally has a very poor turnout, especially in your neck of the woods. It's more popular in my area, but not by much.

Having one singular classifier is a terrible idea. ICORE is really easy to get classified in, especially since you can set up your own classifiers and mail in the results. It's not like you have to go to a special match. There are classifiers you can set up in a shallow pit and that don't require extensive measurement. The freestyle element of ICORE is derived from IPSC, since there's still segments of the rulebook directly taken from IPSC. Even a lot of USPSA classifiers are just speed shoots. That's the purest type of shooting available. I don't see how "run and gun" classifiers would change anything. If you can't quickly draw and shoot a handful of targets at 10 yards, then what's the difference between running to a position and doing the same thing?

I'd say to stay away from it. The recoil does feel reduced but the trigger pull is absolutely horrible. What's more concerning is the internals; it's a series of L-shaped hooks that all engage with each other. There's way too many small moving parts going on.

I've never seen anyone finish the reload with speedloaders that way, by pushing the end of the loader with your thumb. Kinda neat.