Cd662

Looks like we have some folks from all different parts of the northeast interested in coming. I recently talked to a few IPSC shooters from the "good ol days" that were thinking about coming out and dusting off the old reliables sitting in their safes. This is the perfect match to bust out all those guns that don't work for any other format!

Thanks sfchorn, those rules seem very clear cut. The competitor in question in my original post would shoot for no score. I'm amazed how quick people are to reply without reading posts.

This is getting comical, can someone please lock this? I'm just going to E-Mail my question to Amidon and see if he answers.

There are always possibilities for someone to break the law at a USPSA match. A USPSA member could be a felon, or be subject to a restraining order, or maybe the Open gat they just bought was the result of a straw purchase. Who knows. I already stated this multiple times but I'll bold it for you, to keep things simple. USPSA already addressed the issue of how some people might have general legal exemptions. Those legal exemptions may not be used for competitive advantage in a match. My question was regarding the appropriate punishment for the situation, as per USPSA rules. I don't understand why people get so butthurt over everything on this forum. It's like you can't ask anything legitimate without a nit picking contest or a bunch of irrelevant comments being spewed around.

The OP can decide for himself. More ammo is always better than less ammo. If 6 shooters were always equal in Limited, wouldn't more people be running them? Why would you want to potentially end an array with one shot on a target and have to memorize a stage plan to accommodate this happening multiple times? It makes no sense. I think the 7 shot gun is mostly a novelty. They probably had tooling left over from all the 686+s and figured they could sell a 9mm version as an additional model type. MWP - Josh Lentz is an exceptional shooter. If he shot an 8 shot gun, he would not have been in 9th place. Josh shoots SSR in IDPA. If I gave him a snub nose Taurus 5 shot gun, I'm sure he'd beat a lot of SSR shooters. Would the logical conclusion be that the 5 shot gun is an optimal choice for IDPA? The whole ICORE 6 shot neutral thing is supposed to make sure a 6 shot gun can complete any given stage without a ton of difficulty. That does not mean that every stage is going to have identical opportunity to an 8 shot gun.

It's OK Doug, PM me with some more insightful tips about how bullets work and we'll call it even My suspicions were confirmed, no one has an answer. If John Amidon is still in charge until October, I guess he's the guy to ask. No further replies are necessary.

It's a huge disadvantage against other 8 shot guns. There are times where you reload in between arrays and there are times when you don't. Any time you carry shots over, you're at a disadvantage. You're at a capacity disadvantage and a mental disadvantage because your plans are going to be more complicated since you have to remember what target you shot with one round. OP, the 7 shot gun would be best suited for plate matches or Steel Challenge, but the difference between the L and the N frame versus an extra bullet capacity...go for the extra round.

I think a 7 shot gun would make a terrible ICORE gun.

Addendum: To the guy that says violating a law must result in disqualification due to bringing USPSA into disrepute, this would be impossible to enforce. What I think is a far more common occurrence is competitors traveling into another state with magazines they aren't supposed to have. I feel like this happens a lot with Production, for example. They put 11 in the first magazine and make ready with it. The magazine obviously either being loaded to over the legal capacity or is capable of carrying more rounds than is supposed to be legal. Do all of those guys get DQed? Is there going to be an elaborate gear legitimization process form? I'm sure that 99% of the time, this stuff is a non issue. Guys in Hawaii know they can't load up a big stick and shoot em up. People bringing the wrong mags into the wrong state will quietly be told about what was observed and to be careful. Shooters need to watch out for each other. The original post is the only situation I can think of where there is no tangible, USPSA specific, rules based solution.

Hey Doug, I met you briefly at the IRC. I am interested in this issue as a USPSA shooter. I am not a NROI graduate and I was not present at the match it happened at. There's a place in New York I shoot at about two or three times a year and I'm a member on their forums. They brought it up for discussion, I was interested in what to do, and I posted it here. My verbiage was specific to reflect the concerns of the NROI graduates and USPSA members from that club. Personally, I wouldn't even want to get involved with that whole mess. I'm also a little confused, I am the original poster and did not use the acronym "DQ" at all in my post. "the competitor loads 11 rounds in the mag by mistake, a DQ is harsh. If they are doing it to cheat, then a DQ is warranted. If they are doing it to cheat, then your argument that they are bringing the sport in disrepute is justified and I will agree that a DQ is warranted. You are enforcing the law of the land when you assumed that everybody is not allowed to own such a magazine. So if the competitor comes to the line with a 17 round magazine loaded with 10 rounds, you will DQ them because you are assuming that they are not allowed to own that magazine? What I am saying is that you cannot apply the law of the land to DQ people where our rules does not allow it. 10.6.1 and/or 10.6.2 deals with competitors who knowingly tries to cheat against our rules. Yes, the MD's required to load no more than 10 rounds is a reasonable request. The competitor did not disobey on purpose if they mistakenly miscounted or whatever. If they did load 11 on purpose, then by all means, DQ..." I don't think this works here. The issue of "intent" has been brought up time and time again. One can never forecast someone's intent. One can never know if someone is doing something to overtly cheat or if it has been an oversight, short of the person advertising that they have been cheating. The other thing is that people brought up the issue of law enforcement being able to use otherwise restricted items. I recall USPSA's statement that any such exceptions to a law cannot be used for a competitive advantage, that is to say, if everyone is restricted to Open 10 but a police officer or soldier is allowed to have a 20 round magazine, he can't load up and just say "Ha ha, sucks to be everyone else".

The USPSA NROI page still lists John Amidon's E-Mail as the place to send rules clarifications questions. Who handles that these days? For conversation's sake, my question: USPSA ruled that local legal considerations in the context of magazine capacity and legal firearms take precedence over their division. Someone in a state that does not allow any "high capacity" magazines can't show up to a match, disregard the law, and shoot them anyway for a big advantage. It also stated that those who have exemptions to the law (eg, law enforcement) cannot use that to their advantage. Functionally, this is only really an issue right now with Open. There's a Limited 10 division but there's no Open 10. Production and Single Stack still are OK, now that New Yorkers can use 10 round magazines. What is appropriate action to take if someone is shooting Open and they use a magazine loaded to 11 or more rounds in a state where it is not legal to do so? This could tangibly be an out of state competitor that does not know the rules, or someone who overloaded a magazine either intentionally or via oversight. Traditionally, someone loading past the magazine capacity of any given division would be bumped to Open, but Open competitors can't be bumped to a division they're already participating in.

You're right on both counts, Gregg. No one is going to care.

I would just take it and shoot it. Who knows if that's the actual length or if it's just the measurement someone came up with and they slapped it on the site? I strongly, strongly, strongly doubt anyone is going to notice 5 thousandths of an inch of barrel length. Revolvers don't have to fit in the box. A 627 in IDPA is a terrible idea. You'll always have to reload with retention or have to deal with partially loaded moonclips. It's not a viable choice, don't waste your time.

Significant effort was placed in securing ICORE membership, but the home club would not approve it, citing lack of interest from the shooters. The last "ICORE style" match had 20 shooters so the club thought that even the small investment required to secure ICORE status was insufficient. I have been trying to get a few clubs interested in running ICORE events and most places are either booked with their current match schedules, or are mostly interested in IDPA or local, informal "combat style" matches.

I'm trying to get the word out for the Long Island Practical Shooter's Association regarding their October revolver match. I am not a club member but I've helped get this thing together, so feel free to ask any questions you may have! There's no entry form up since entries will be handled the week before the event via electronic registration. That having been said, I'm looking to get an approximate headcount so if you plan on coming or are even strongly interested, let me know. When: The 2nd Annual Long Island Revolver Championship is on Sunday, October 26. Match starts at around 9:30 AM (Get there earlier) Where: http://www.lipsa.us/ How Much?: 20 bucks! Other Details: The match is going to use ICORE divisions and rules, however, this is not a sanctioned ICORE match. There may be a classifier as a stage but the results will not be sent into ICORE. ICORE membership is not required, so this is an "outlaw" match. There will be 7 or 8 stages using a variety of paper and steel targets. There may be small awards for podium finishes in each division, I am still working on that. The amount of resources available for this match are relatively small, but the range setup is great and this club hosts multiple different action pistol disciplines. The range has a bunch of nice pits with a variety of props and targets available: in short, this isn't a hole in the wall in the middle of the woods. The setup is efficient and there are NROI certified Range Officers usually present for USPSA Level 1 matches. Round count is probably going to be around 200, but the stages are not yet finalized. There are probably not going to be any door prizes or prizes for top finishers. The attendance at the last revolver match was pretty bad. The range is giving the revolver guys one more shot at this. If they don't get a reasonable attendance, there will be no revolver matches here. Let's get some support going! This should be a perfect match to introduce your non-revolver shooting friends, especially since there is no ICORE or USPSA membership required and the entry price is so cheap. In addition, I am looking for sponsorship support: if you are interested in donating a small amount of money for plaques, or random give away raffle prizes, please contact me!

The answer should not be different, regardless of skill level and previous experience. Supposition cannot be presumed to be factual. Assuming that Master class shooters are incapable of making mental mistakes, missing, or committing other common errors deemed as FTDR worthy offenses by some is erroneous thinking. The IDPA rulebook is clear about the OP's scenario, the correct call is to issue one procedural penalty.

"I was wondering WHY all the snide/snobby comments. . . . . Then I looked at the forum name" Funny that absolutely no one I know that has worked professionally with a gun and has been engaged by some manner of hostile individual with a firearm does this when they shoot USPSA, mostly because they don't feel the need to visually impress anyone...

I don't know if this is really an "update" on the hammer controversy. This year I was told at S&W Indoor Nationals that because the new rule book did not specifically address the "You can't drop the hammer while manipulating the gun with the cylinder open" thing, it was not going to be checked. That was a Smith and Wesson facility rule and not an IDPA rule. The new IDPA rule book does not mention this anywhere so I suppose it's legal now. I competed with a firearm whose hammer could conceivably fall with the action open if you wailed hard on it and passed equipment check. 8.2.5.3. SSR Excluded Modifications (Non-Inclusive list): 8.2.5.3.1. Oversize or heavy barrels. 8.2.5.3.2. Hogue Big Butt grips and similar are not allowed.

I'm still looking for a solution to this but all of you have comparatively great vision. I'm -7.75 and -8.25

Fiddler, there is some reenactment style format in the same vein as Cowboy Action shooting that focuses on the roaring 20s (and the time period roughly before and after then), I think they're called Zoot Shoots. Handguns are shot one handed and I think one Alpha on a USPSA target is all that's required.

How do people not show up to the stage? Serious question.

It's par time + penalty, so the base score is a 36 and you move up or down from that. X hits subtract one second per occurrence. Going prone is not mandatory at 50 yards, and if you can shoot Alphas freestyle at 50 yards with a par time then you are a straight up baller.

I have a new production Model 14 from the S&W Classic Line that I had a competent gunsmith do work on. The gun has not seen a lot of rounds, maybe 2 or 3 thousand tops. The gunsmith built the gun with a Cylinder and Slide extended firing pin. This has never given me any trouble (surprisingly) but I don't shoot the gun often. I wanted to change the firing pin (just in case) before the IRC. I am pretty sure the spring is from an Apex pin. The Apex pin started light striking primers that weren't perfect, but were being ignited from the old pin. I switched out the Apex pin for a brand new C&S pin, which was 2 thousandths of an inch longer than the one that was working. That one was light striking also. I am going to go back to the original pin and just hope for the best at this point, but I was wondering if the tech gurus can give me some advice. I don't like messing around with gear, I don't want to constantly be worried about firing pin breakage, and the C&S pins scare me since dry firing them, talking about them, looking at them, or thinking about them seems to mean they could break. For me, a primer that should go off is one that has been seated or reseated to 4 thousandths of an inch or deeper below flush. My match brass is Starline and a lot of that is seated 8 to 10 thousandths of an inch deep, but I want a gun that can ignite non "perfect" primers. I know it's possible since a friend of mine has an Open gun and it ignites Winchester primers and non-perfect Federal primers.

doc38, your sentiments have been echoed by others in other threads. I call shenanigans. You said you carry revolvers. Would you trust your life to some piece of crap because you don't want to spend money on it? I mean there are people that do that, power to them. I hope their gun goes bang if they have to use it. You said you hunt with revolvers. Would you waste all of your time to buy your license, get the tags, set up in a spot, pick out your beast of choice, and have a junky revolver you can't make the shot with? Do you load your self defense and hunting guns with lead wadcutters because they cost 12 bucks a box? No one is telling you that you can't shoot your 4 inch 625, do whatever you want. There is no one involved in shooting sports that is not spending a lot of money to be competitive. Revolvers are one of the most expensive things in my opinion because there's not a lot of people that have the knowledge to fix them. Since you are new to shooting sports, some explanation about ESR in IDPA. They split the revolver division to accommodate moon clips and now they have ESR and SSR. Guess which two divisions in IDPA have the worst attendance? underlug - At least there was a Nationals this year and last year, as opposed to having a small amount of revolver shooters mixed in with Production guys. The 6 and 8 shot thing has been argued to death. People want to shoot 8 shot guns. They even want to shoot them in ICORE, which is a Revolver only game. The IRC is the ICORE Nationals Event and they formally recognize 6 shot Open guns and 6 Shot moonclip fed guns as a special recognition category. There were 12 Limited and 3 Open shooters. Besides, there's a few real contenders at the USPSA Revolver Nationals and then everyone else...just like in Production. Are you going to feel better if you go to Production and shoot a match and have a better overall placement because there were 20 unclassified guys with Glock 26s and three magazines shooting the same match? I mean if it's such a sorry division, it shouldn't be very difficult for you to win the Revolver Nationals. You obviously phrased your post ambiguously on purpose, but I'll spell out what you didn't have the guts to say. Jerry M and Rob L are better shooters than you, me, and most other people on this forum. I find it extremely dubious that moving to 8 shot minor was some magic, hail Mary pass set up through a series of elaborate backroom moves so they could compete. It seems to me that people are coming up with a bunch of stupid excuses for matches they didn't go to regarding a division they don't shoot. This whole thing about people showing up for 6 shot guns and pulling out their trusty 3 inch Model 10s with speedloaders and trying USPSA is a fallacy. Until people stop blaming irrelevant circumstances, I don't foresee any growth to the division.

Rick, if the gun is pointed anywhere in any direction including 179.9999 degrees, that qualifies as downrange.