ziebart

1 A or 2 anywhere for rifle and pistol, the same as every other division.

I want to make a public apology to Darqusoull13. I misread his post. That said we do not plan on changing the items mentioned. There was some talk about it on a FB live video to see what the majority of people wanted, but nobody really swayed the division to pump and 45s. Too many times a organization has relied on polls and they always end up skewed with results that do not reflect what is "correct". Not everyone is on FB or Enos and then you have people that don't shoot the division making suggestions. If heavy ever gets to a point where there is no question that there are more than 30 shooters at most majors then we can consider making two divisions. Until then the division has trouble meeting a reasonable depth so it is not feasible to split the already small pool. It is unfortunate the pump and 45 remain a wedge between the heavy shooters, but it seems like it is a core belief for many and I am not going to try and sway people one way or the other.

Darqusoull13, - I am not sure which copy of the rules you are reading, but there is no prohibition on silencers in UML. I did just make an edit clarifying their use. - UML has never limited Heavy to 45 pistols and pump shotguns. We are looking at changing the name to Tac 308 as the division is basically tactical with a 308 winchester minimum on rifle. While it may seem silly to change the name, I feel it is important to reduce the friction caused with other matches and organizations running IMHO true heavy (HeMan) rules. We plan to mark these final in the next couple days and then only make changes once per year in January. I thought these were good rules until clubs from around the country had questions and then I needed to make clarifications on things that were implied.

9mm is not 223 in power or accuracy. I am not arguing that it should be done, just that it has. If someone wanted to shoot 2 gun with a 9mm pistol and a 9mm rifle they could, but they have to understand that choosing 9mm for their "rifle" has some disadvantages. I will admit that I have not put a red dot vs 1x scope on the clock in a while. Practicing short range (pistol) distance with my rifle is not something I do. I did try it once with a 45* offset dot and it was not measurably faster for me compared to my 1-6x Razor.

I have a feeling most of it is on stage design.

Not sure if the link will work for you all, but skip to 9:20 mark to see a 340 yard shot with a PCC and red dot. If you were shooting 2x4 you don't "have" to shoot long range with a real rifle.

To the OP, yes changing firearms/optics are allowed provided you do not change caliber. I don't know how much advantage it really provides. For example I used a 2-10x scope in Open last year, but the year before I used a 1-6 and am going back to the 1-6 this year. The extra magnification didn't seem worth the sacrifice in FOV, though that was compounded by it being a SFP scope. It is an advantage if your gun breaks, and now you don't need to find the RM for approval. It is good if you bring an unreliable magfed shotgun and only want to use it on the massive stages, but then again if it craps out halfway through you are still toast on that stage. Stage Briefings from last years Safariland Expedition Multigun Match. There were some full written out deals, but I can't seem to find them anymore. All stages were bay stages as it was designed to be a close range match, though IIRC there were some bays that went out to 80ish yards. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwfinlGN4FLzZ3loMDdfX3dBelU/view?usp=sharing & https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwfinlGN4FLzWVZvdVJFVHpucmc/view?usp=sharing. One thing I learned from that match was the need for clear stage briefings. What we thought was plain English was muddled by the new divisions and I had to answer a lot of questions. Not an issue as I am glad they were asked but many could have been avoided by having separate briefings. MGM gets away with the trooper rules because they have a core group that polices themselves and has been doing it for years. This is new and you can't rely on that. I want to close with all matches are different, and different stages will have different WSBs that may dictate certain things. The EMG match did not have a single clay in it so you could have only brought 2 guns and been okay. 2x4 had to shoot all the targets same as every other division. There will be a separate MD guidebook with suggestions and recommendations but that is all it will be. If the MD wants to put a 200 yard target out there and say that everyone including PCC needs to shoot it then so be it. This started with an idea to make a rulebook that is as inclusive as possible. Some MD's are evil, and some shooters are gluttons for punishment. Who am I to deny them that?

Vodka and Mio is okay, have to replace the electrolytes lost. Diets are for those that don't 3gun. It's not diet metal after all

Stlhead, I'm not sure about the ball punching, but I like the spirit. People who don't reset are unsportsmanlike and effectively cheating IMHO. It is like golfing where everyone has to walk the course. If they rode a cart then it become easier for them. There is a provision for a 30 second penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct in UML. In other rule sets it is a DQ and I feel like most people that deserve correction don't need to be DQ'd at first but they need some sort of corrective action beyond a stern talking to. Of course if they continue to be dicks then sure DQ them. I like the 8 round tubes but I am in the minorty on that. No need for a 10 foot gun in "tactical" unless you are putting a bayonet on it. Not sure about the pie update. Who is responsible for making it? How much does each person get? Most importantly what kind is it? I am partial to rhubarb myself. Should we make the shooter eat it on the clock before shooting their first stage? Just thought of another good rule, the beer finish. At the end of the last stage the shooter must chug a beer. We can get some O'Douls or root beer for those underage

JJ, I am now aware that I could talk with Stealthyblagga if I want to talk about SMM3G's version of IMA rules. For example, when I Google IMA rules this is the link that comes up http://smm3gun.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/IMA-SMM3G-Rules.pdf. It has SMM3G in the header. If I was to run a match by another name I would not want to print that out and hand it to the competitors. Is there a copy out there that is not match specific? Nobody, especially myself is saying that UML rules should be the standard. They are simply out there like any other rules that anyone can use. For example the IMA rules linked above state that they will defer to the 2014 USPSA rules in case of unexpected issues.

Stlhead, I think that is the most important point. It doesn't matter what rules a person uses if they suck at putting a match together.

You are right, and rereading it, saying the rules are defunct is wrong. Yes there are plenty of matches using them as a basis for their rules including UML, but who runs the IMG/IMA rules? Is there a point of contact for any changes or clarifications? I know I can ask JJ if I have questions at RM3G about RM3G but I'm talking about for any Yahoo who wants to start a new match or club. Do SMMG and RM3G use the exact same rules? No, they don't and that is okay, but I feel that a standard is one that people can use everywhere. One foot is 12 inches, not the length of my actual foot even though it is darn close. Off topic...I know I'm in the minority, but I personally like hit factor scoring. Major/minor in 3 gun is and was a cluster though.

That is true, but not much changed with the USPSA rules. Besides that, as much as some people like to poo poo on USPSA, most matches are roughly based around them or the defunct IMG rules.

Thanks everyone for the comments. I will try to address each one individually even if you didn't ask a question. UML isn't for everyone and that is okay. Pete is simply trying to make it closer to what the majority of people want so more folks can rally behind it. It is not meant to push out USPSA or 3 Gun Nation. Personally, I really like the way USPSA does things, but they are not and will not be what the majority of those running outlaw matches want. iamspartacus I agree, 2x4 is based on MGM Ironman's Trooper division where anything went. We had to trim that down, but so many people loved the run what you brung "no limits" division. If you want to shoot tac ops equipment then shoot tac ops. Besides for $35 you can have a 16 round shotgun which you will rarely use. Put a bipod on the rifle and BOOM! open rifle Watch the video from Max shooting the Safariland match last year and I think he used the PCC and either pistol or rifle on most if not all the stages. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RS4La7tDHHQ dogtired I thought CVMG used regular division wins? Maybe they were talking about the categories such as high military/lady bmiller I agree that hot reholstering is not for inexperienced, but since it is allowed at so many matches including USPSA pistol matches it is hard to prohibit it. FN had to DQ a guy on his first stage because he reholstered on his first stage. Not sure if he wasn't aware that it was prohibited or if he just forgot. There are provisions for shooters not following stage procedures and if the stage description calls for a pistol to be abandoned in a bucket then the competitor will get a procedural for failure to comply. It won't stop everyone, but it will discourage those people that think they will save a second verses putting it in a bucket.

If you have a 25 round stage with some steel in it you have to choose whether you want to plan a reload or not. Having a 28 round mag after making 2 makeup shots is really nice, when you need a third. Bottom line... If you are just starting out then it is not that critical. I would spend more time making sure the gun runs 100% and planning an extra reload than trying to stuff more rounds in a magazine.

Yup, its another multigun groupwith its own rules. While you can't please everyone they are working to be more inclusive of outlaw matches. Ideally the goal is to get more matches on the same page when it comes to rules. If we can get it to UML, USPSA, and 3GN that would be a big step forward compared to the dozens of rule sets out there now.

Everyone I've seen use a cart uses a bag as well.

The finger coming off isn't much of a problem. Riding the reset can result in "trigger freeze" where you don't let it all the way to the reset point. Quick test, take a click pen and see which is faster; slapping or minimum finger movement.

The short sights are my biggest issue with the gun. Yes, the trigger isn't good, and the charging handle can be slow compared to standard AR for empty gun starts. I'm looking at replacing the front sight with a red dot instead if bolting it to the handguard. This would allow it to fold without having an odd 45* sight. Bottom line it is a great $400 gun, but don't compare it to a $1600 JP. I would get it again.

MK262 or equivalent (77SMK @ 2700-2800 fps) will be really close to the reticle. Your and my ideas of close and way off may be different though. If you look at Vortex website they will give the MOA spacing of the reticle and you can play with numbers in your ballistic app from there. I like the heavy bullets because they tend to move the reactive targets more which helps the ROs call hits. They are also nice when shooting spinners. Past 300 atmospheric data becomes much more critical so what works at 2000 feet density altitude may not work at 6000 feet. I know I my data changed at Raton vs home. Then again the targets at 500 yards were so big it didn't really matter.

I have the triangle. As said before the only thing that bothers me is how the triangle isn't completely vertical. Its like it is canted ever so slightly.

I've seen three broken bolts, one of which was mine. Not sure that hot ammo was the cause. JP said they just wear out over time.

It may be a little late in the game, but here is a thread for the 2017 Surefire match. The waitlist is short, and there are always a few people who drop out if you are still interested in shooting the main match. If you are willing to shoot with the ROs there are a bunch of slots open there. Website is http://www.surefirewmg.com/ Registration https://practiscore.com/clubs/surefirewmg

ADDED Surefire WMG Dates and weblink JULY JULY 8-9: Nightforce Precision/Tactical 2 Rifle Match, Johnson3gun, NRA Whittington Center, Raton, NM JUL 15-16: Colorado 3 Gun Championships presented by Burris Optics, Colorado Springs, CO JUL 15-16: Trijicon 3 man 3 Gun, Topton, PA AUGUST AUG 3-6: Magpul Wyoming Governor's Cup 2-Gun Challenge, Otto Road Shooting Range, Cheyenne, WY AUG 10-13: JP Enterprises' Rocky Mountain 3-Gun, NRA Whittington Center, Raton, NM AUG 18-19: 2017 Pro-Am Championship Rockcastle Shooting Center AUG 28: 2017 Mississippi CQB Rifle Championship, Coast Rifle and Pistol Club, Biloxi, MS SEPTEMBER SEP 8-10: - Generation III Gun, Osage Beach, MO SEP 16: Fort Sill Multi-Gun Championship, Fort Sill (Army Base), OK. SEP 21-24 JP Enterprises Resurgence 3-Gun Logan, NM OCTOBER OCT 5-7: A Girl with Gun Shooting League Presents the Brownells Fall Festival at Rockcastle Shooting Center, Park City, KY OCT 6-8: 2017 Fallen Brethren 3Gun challenge FB3Gun/url] at tripleC shooting facility, Cresson, TX OCT 6-8: Surefire World Multigun Championship http://www.surefirewmg.com/ Boulder City, NV OCT 19-21: Blue Ridge Mountain 3-Gun, Rockcastle Shooting Center, Park City, KY OCT. 28TH 2017 Walking Dead Multi Gun, Overnight, Triple C Tactical, Cresson, TX. (6th Annual) http://www.lonestarmultigun.com/ OCT 30: 2017 Mississippi 3gun State Championship, Coast Rifle and Pistol Club, Biloxi, MS NOVEMBER NOV 10-11: 3GN Nationals, VIR ranges, Alton, VA DECEMBER DEC (TBD): Hard as Hell Mulitgun - SUPS, St. George, U

Anecdotal, but the last couple lvl 2 and higher matches I've shot hae come out almost exactly at my classifier percentage. The last was against Max at the NM sectional. Classifiers are tough since they, like the rest of the sport are graded on a curve. You don't know what the 100% will be till everyone shoots it. You can jave a good idea after a couple of the best shoot it, but it is always possible someone beats it. Compared to trap, skeet, bullseye where you know what you need to score to get 100%. Yes someone can make a perfect score including full x counts but once enough people do that then bullseye makes the target smaller. Fixed time stages are the closest we have to that, yet we don't shorten the time.