RIIID

Bruce is right, his logic is undeniable, all guns with trigger work are illegal in Production. Cease and desist, conformity is the only option. The words "trigger work" and "allowed" were never mentioned in the same sentence in the 2000, 2001, and 2004 rule books. The 2008 rule book is the law of the land, trigger work is not mention so it isn't allowed. Reverse the illegal mods or buy a new gun that complies. It was a long 8 year dream that trigger work was allowed, time to wake up and die. Rich

One problem is there are two distinct opinions of what trigger work means, a vast majority believe that replacing parts is trigger work, the other is just polishing. The 1911 is the oldest and the gun that gets trigger work the most. In a 1911 trigger work includes changing the angle of the sear and the hammer hook height, 99.9% of 1911 trigger work involves this. For a high quality trigger work the hammer, sear, sear spring, main spring, disconnector, trigger, and possibly the pins and hammer strut are replaced. It's hard for some to not think trigger work means no replacement of parts. There has been 4 attempts to write the Production rules every version has allowed more modifications to be done, it's impossible to clear the water up so to speak because the mud has turned to dirt because there is no water left. I saw the 2008 rules as the death nail into having Production a stock looking gun Division. One other point I must make in the first set of rules slide lightening was expressly not legal, when the 2004 rules came out I saw that the lightening rule was missing. I contacted several AD's to point this out and how to spot this on some guns. The response I got was it was purposely left out to help some guns be competitive with the rest. Now the 2008 rules say that you can't use a mill to lighten a slide, but you can replace the entire slide with a new one that can be lighter as long as it matches the factory profile. If you really want to according to the rules one could "throat" the inside of a slide and make it lighter to improve function and reliability but you can't use a mill to do it. Hows that for reading the rules as they are written? Rich

Gary, Just think how much better the US would do at the WS if we shot IPSC rules all of the time. Rich

Flex, That's just a hand full, how would you feel if you had done a thousand or two? Rich

When I hear the word "hired" and or "hired gun" I think the BOD is calling it a job. A job has compensation, this makes me think we/USPSA is going to pay more to field the WS teams. I'm probably wrong but that's what I think of and maybe some of the selected few might come to think that way to. Just how much more do we pay to win or are we just wanting to guarantee that we win everything by hand picking. The Nationals have been used to select WS teams in the past, our Nationals aren't IPSC approved matches they're USPSA approved. So why do the classifier matches have to be IPSC approved matches? Just use our Area matches as qualifiers. This last process of picking the WS teams worked and it was fair for everyone. This new process just doesn't sound fair from the start and it smells to. Rich

"I hope it does not have a canyon creek trigger job." quote What difference does it make whos trigger job it is, all trigger jobs are illegal in the 2008 rule book. That is how some people are reading it. Rich

It's sad that the BOD wants to blame the shooters for creating an anything goes attitude when they the BOD kept changing the rules for the bad. With the 4 different rule books every time something was added to the rules to take it to an anything goes "racegun" Division. Rich

I think STI choice of the name could have been a little more creative. Rich

Vlad, Trigger pull weight tests can only can tell how much weight it takes to fire the gun. It can't tell the distance of, pre-travel, over travel, and reset. Those are what most trigger jobs are done for besides pull weight. Having a pull weight limit won't solve the problem that some of the BOD are afraid of. I wrote it early in this thread that we have to deal with the "problem" from the point we are at right now. Dump section 21 and 22 from the rules and replace it with a compliance test. As in The gun with an empty mag must fit into the Production box and no external changes from factory with the exception of grip stippling and checkering. Rich

One other tid bit, the gun has to be in the same configuration as the tested model on the list. If the gun has had work done to it, it can't go into CA. Talking with the DOJ, if the tested gun had wood grips and the one going in has rubber, it is a new model that would have to be tested and approved. Changing sights, trigger work, etc...... all creates a new model and would have to be tested and approved. LEO's are exempt and can have just about anything they want on or off the list. Rich

The fear of something being made better by the change of design will happen. Just because there is a rule that says you can't do it isn't going to stop people from seeking the better mouse trap. Springfield has a good mouse trap the XD, they saw a need for it to be better and just like that the XDm came about. Did they do it for the 18,000 USPSA members who might use it, I think not. They did it for the hundreds of thousands of the gun buying public. Is the XDm perfect no, I've found ways to make it even better. The evolution continues no matter how much you don't want it to. Doing trigger work on guns happens every day and it's done without competition in mind. I did eight this week that weren't for competition will some of these guns make it into competition someday they might. The others I did were for competition are they Production legal, I'll just have to see how all this pans out. Production guns will evolve no matter how many restrictions you try to place on it. Your trying to prevent something that will happen and it will find it's way into Production. Will it happen tomorrow, next month, next year, or the next decade who knows. All I know is I won't fear it. Rich

Custom built in the Custom Shop, it was done just to show what can be done. I was told no real plans on building any more like it, if they don't have to at the moment. Rich

Bruce and others who fear trigger work will be the end of Production. We have been changing the angles on 1911 sears for decades maybe that's why Open and Limited are so unsuccessful and we should eliminate them, just not enough interest to continue to have them around. There isn't a factory trigger produced that can't be improved upon, it's in the nature of competition to improve in every aspect. Production is working. Going box stock will cause the sky to fall in Production. You will have more people shooting Revolver than box stock Production. The writing of the rules got us to this point not the shooters. Rich

Bruce, With your analogy you fire your cashier because they can't tell the difference between steak and hamburger. The cashier is your line in the sand, you put a steak on your plate with a bun you get charged for a steak and the bun. From day one nobody knew what Production was supposed to be so there was no way to draw the line in the sand. You can't draw the line 10 miles behind where you at right now. The line has to be draw from the point we're at right now, the train won't and can't back up. Rich

Just hanging weight off the bottom of the grip isn't the same as the weight in your hand. The metal grip will transfer the effects of what is felt when it fires compared to polymer. Some will like it others won't, it's up to the individual shooter to determine what they like. In the beginning we were told you couldn't modify the polymer grip and look what has happened. The metal grip can be modified also to conform to a shooters grip just give it time and it will happen. Rich

It's way too late to draw the line so lets just face it Production is an arms race thanks to the BODs inability to write clear concise rules. We can't back up now 9 years down the tracks. Production has become something nobody wanted but thousands of shooters want to shoot it. So lets just have a simple way of checking a guns legality, all of the safeties are intact and it fits into the box with an empty mag and it retains the *factory profile. Remove 21 and 22 from D4 and you have the rules for Production. The hell with what can and can't be done lets just shoot. Thousands of dollars have been spent on gear, and thousands more new shooters will join us with guns that have already been modified. It's just too late. Rich * This will keep magwells from being added and external slide cuts. If a manufacture builds a gun with these features it just doesn't get added to the approved list of guns.

My name is Nobody and the 40 works very well in Production. Rich AKA Nobody

From JA's response that would make thousands of guns that are illegal in the fastest growing division in USPSA. The train never stopped at the station Flex, it just high balled right on through the station with nobody on board. Rich

The time to draw the line was 9 years ago and stuck to it. With every revision something new was allowed and something that was allowable became illegal. Lets face it the only two parts of a guns exterior that can't be changed/modified is the trigger guard and the dust cover. Internally? Rich

If you really want to go by the rule book "Trigger work" isn't listed as an authorized modification. In the last rule book it was listed as "Action work" and it was authorized. So any gun with trigger/action work would be illegal in Production. Now the first line of the authorized modifications could be interpreted into trigger/action work, the same could also be used to do internal slide lightening as long as you do it by "throating and polishing". We all know that a lightened slide improves reliability and function. Now this is just one way to read the rule book, how many more ways can it be read? Rich

Open and Limited 1 1/8# XD 2 1/4# XDm 1 3/4# Rich

With the .40 in an XD/m you can load to 1.155 and you won't have an issue. With the XDm in .40 with CC extended base pads you can load 21 rounds and the mag fits in the gauge. Now you are at the same capacity as the rest of the Limited gun platforms. Rich

Give Canyon Creek a call/ e-mail. Rich

Holsters don't seem to be a problem for squared trigger guards. I would cut the inner portion to the same thickness as the rest. Squared trigger guards done properly will give more room for the trigger finger to operate. I like to move the front portion forward on the frame. Rich

I think I might have to get a BAR, trench shotgun, and a 1902 38 long slide. Rich