Multi-Gun Proficiency

[Steve Moneypenny]

I am a Production shooter, i shoot a beretta elite 2 9mm.

I also own a Para P16-40 ready to race, but i shoot mostly IDPA, i was wondering if you guys out there routinely shoot the 2 guns and remain at the same level of proficiency with both guns. as i won't want to give up my SSP Master status and switch to ESP shooting the para.

All thoughts are appreciated, also your level of proficiency (class) would be appriciated.

[Duane Thomas]

IDPA:

CDP Expert

SSP Expert

USPSA:

Limited-10 A Class

I used to be very serious about maintaining proficiency with various handguns. Practiced frequently with 1911, Glock, DA autos, revolvers, etc. In the past few years my focus has switched to becoming as good as possible with one specific gun, in this case my Wilson SS .45. There's no doubt in my mind I can fire that gun better than anything else you could put in my hand. At the same time, let's not kid ourselves, shooting techniques between various trigger actions aren't THAT different. Once you reach a certain level of skill, you can pick up anything and outshoot just about anyone, unless this is a shooter of your own skill level who happens to be grooved-in on THAT gun. Or a higher level shooter who also has decent across-the-board proficiency.

OTOH Miyamoto Musashi weighs in with this statement: "You should not have a favorite weapon. To become over-familiar with one weapon is as much a fault as not knowing it sufficiently well."

(Edited by Duane Thomas at 6:24 pm on Oct. 6, 2002)

[Steve Moneypenny]

umm. Musashi was a saumari, his weapons were vastly different in their useage, but he did favor the sword.

sorry, forgot to post my class.

IDPA SSP Master

USPSA Production B(69%)

Can anyone throw in some advise, or help on this?

Thanks for all replies.

[vluc]

Actually Musashi, after achieving what he considered proficiency, abandoned the sword for the bokken and used that for the remainder of his life.

[Steve Moneypenny]

true true.... humm, ASP red gun, cheap affordable..... no ammo cost :-) maybe an air-soft ;-D

i have a huge book here on the life of musashi, lot of interesting tale's and philosophies.

back to shooting anyone

[j1b]

I would think you would be as proficient with both guns. In the IDPA matches I've shot two guns things stayed relatively the same. Of course round count changes things up a bit - but all in all scores stayed the same.

Shouldn't be a problem. I'm certain to this day people still shoot IPSC matches with an open gun and then re-shoot with a limited gun. Talk about a huge difference.

JB

[vluc]

smoney, musahi had a variety of things to say about weapons and the different "schools".  He did comment in The Book of Five Rings, that one shoudl not feel that any one way has all the answers.

Try them all and find what works for you.  So I would take his comments to encourage you to try to shoot a variety of different pistols.  I only play with two...The Glock and SIG-Sauer.  Each in a different game.

Perhaps time to return to what you used to do and close the circle....

[George D]

I shoot 4 ISSF matches (Bullseye) with 4 different pistols and have acheived and maintained the same grade in each. I also shoot a match like PPC with a custom slab-sided S&W, a S&W M29C(6 1/2") and a S&W M629C(5"). The match has a possible of 900 and I shoot 850-860 with the custom gun and 820-840 with the 44's (loaded for mid-range). I also shoot a short barrel version of the match with a S&W 686(2 1/2').

I find most of the fun of shooting pistols is trying to acheive a standard with different guns. I have just purchased a S&W 945 (45 acp auto) and Brian's book and have dropped competition for the moment while I familiarise with the new pistol and unlearn lots of techniques in the light of Brians wisdom. I recall that when I started shooting DA revolver I experimented with NPA and found an open position similar to that described by Brain in his book, but I was talked out of it by shooters more experienced in this discipline.

I have a lot to learn with the auto and a lot to unlearn and re-assess with the revolvers, but I will still shoot all 5guns and attempt to acheive proficiency with them all.

[BSeevers]

I am nowhere near as proficient on my "other" guns as I am on my Racegun. I do not shoot them very much except for reshoots for fun with Limited/Pro or if I am shooting the Nationals with L10/Pro/L, I dig out the guns and practice and shoot a little.

I think as I progress in my skills, the transistion will be nil as proven by Rob/Todd/Jerry show us by bouncing back and forth. I am still pretty confident I can pick up any gun and hit the target. Its just running that gun at 9/10ths(that's racer talk) takes a little transistion time.

As a side note I think its much easier to transistion from say an SV shooting Limited as a M to an SV shooting 10 rounds in L10 as an A class. See what I am saying. I really think that rule needs changed.

[David Olhasso]

I am a firm believer that 'cross training' between different guns will help make you a better shooter.  I do believe that there is a 'learning' curve with each type of gun which may vary from a few rounds to many thousands of rounds.  By type of gun, I am most interested with sight type and trigger type.  For example, a dedicated 1911 open shooter may have a heck of a time learning a typical DA/SA gun such as Sig or Beretta.  Once you learn a particular platform, then switching between the platforms you are proficient in should not be a problem.

That said, I predominantly shoot production and SSP and I don't have a problem switching to my limited gun.  When I switch to the open gun (for the PSA shootout and the tristate), I sometimes tend to go a bit too fast and have a few misses.   Of course, that problem is all in my mind: I need to remember that having a dot and a comp is not a license to ignore aiming.

GM production

GM Limited

M Open

M SSP

[Bill]

I just got back from practicing with my Para .45 after shooting only a revolver or Glock for the last 2 years. Sure had to slow down to get center hits.

I think a lot of the problem with me is how the gun points naturally. The 1911's point low & I have to raise the sights, while the revo & Glock point OK for me. I used to shoot 1911's all the time & they pointed OK then.

Bill Nesbitt

[mcoliver]

Before I really had problems switching between my glock and 1911 because my glock will always point high.  Now I only need a couple of draws or get sight pictures and sight alignment becomes automatic.  Even trigger switching doesn't feel to wierd anymore. In a match, though, I try not to fiddle with other people's guns (no 1911's when using my glock or vice versa) afraid that I may loose my touch with mine (whatever that may mean).

(Edited by mcoliver at 1:17 am on Oct. 14, 2002)

[TDean]

"I am a firm believer that 'cross training' between different guns will help make you a better shooter.."-David O.

I can certianly see the benefit of cross-training for the purpose of learning the different elements that are necessary to become a great shooter.  It's important to know how to hold the sight picture all the way through a double action pull.  Mastering this can only help your overall proficiency, I agree, but.......

....once you extract all the learning possibilities from different platforms and are able to apply them toward your platform of choice (ie, limited 1911), I think that switching back'n forth between guns hurts your performance.  

I could very well be wrong, but I would say after you are satisified that you have learned all you can learn from different guns, stick to your one gun and fine-tune into it.

I believe that success is a very personal thing, only I know what my threshold of "success" is, or when I've reached it.  Right now, I want to go as far as possible with my Limited gun, I'm not there yet!

Shooting a different gun every other weekend won't help me do that.

I noticed during a recent three gun that I can't perform 100% on the handgun stages because I just shot the shotgun or the rifle the stage before.  Because of the different trigger pulls and recoils, I wasn't in tune with my Limited gun when it came time to perform.  I need to be.....

Beware of the man with one gun

[George D]

I think a distinction has to be drawn between multi-gun proficiency and multi-discipline proficiency.

If the goal is to gain the highest grade or to be the most competitive then there would be advantage to "shoot one gun and shoot it really well".

If the goal is to be a "good shooter" then I think that requires ability with more than one gun and more than one disciple, and even more than one type of discipline i.e. handgun, shotgun, rifle etc. - like Mushasi with his different usage weapons.

I would rate someone who is A-grade in many disciplines as more proficient than one who is Master-grade in one.

(Edited by George D at 12:14 pm on Oct. 16, 2002)

[George D]

MM,

You say "I don't get paid to shoot, nor does anyone else pick up the tab for my ammo". Neither do I or, I suspect, most of the forum members.

I have been following many of your posts and there is a great deal of valuable information in them, but it is quite apparent that you are currently very oriented towards defensive shooting. No problem with that, but the forum members here are oriented towards sports shooting and that is the stated objective of this forum. I think that all the members here would gain more from your posts if you could possibly slant them more towards the sporting and competition theme.

[PaulW]

Well yes I do.  The last time I played it took both eye-hand coordination for both sports.  

[Jake Di Vita]

I think so too. If you take the best athletes in the world today and put them into a different sport, I guarantee they would be better than average.

And I like shooting this as opposed to Bullseye because I feel it is more of a challenge. If you took a Bullseye only shooter and suddenly threw him into IPSC, he'd be a fish out of water. However, if you took a seasoned IPSC shooter who knows the fundamentals of accuracy, I guarantee he'd do better than the average shooter. My $.02.

[PaulW]

MM,

You are so full of shjt Dude.  

Thats it.

[Ron Ankeny]

PaulW:

If we covered mom with a liberal coating of Preparation H do you think he would shrivel up and go away?

[PaulW]

Ron,

ROTFLMAO...........

LIBERAL Coating....way to funny!!

[Paul Sharp]

"Can anyone throw in some advise, or help on this?"

I look at shooting various weapons as a challenge.  Its simply a mechanical device that I can shoot at a high level of skill if I persist.

Sometimes I enjoy shooting various weapons just to avoid burn-out.  Simply switching between the Beretta and the Para when you start to get the "don't feel like it" feeling might help you to keep at it as the the platform has changed enough to spark your interest.

You mentioned something to the effect of not wanting to sacrifice your ranking by switching...., you're a Musashi fan so you know what I'm going to say now.

Thats your ego screaming for a spanking.  To quote Don Henley, "pull out your inner child and kick his a**".  Think of the confidence and all 'round warm fuzzy's you'll have once you suck it up and shoot the Para until you make Master.

Master with two different weapons is a pretty cool feat.

The flip side is found in what TDean alluded to, beware of the man with one gun.  As performance based shooters we spend a lot of time developing the all-important index.  It takes some work to get there with one gun, thats why some guy's shoot the 1911 type like crazy than switch to something else and you see them take that extra moment to find the sights, their index is all screwed up.

I say, give it a hard run.  Whats the down side, nothing that I can see.  You never know, you could be one of those Jerry Miculek type guys  That guy is a serious threat in any competition with any weapon he chooses.  If he showed up at a High Power Rifle shoot with a wrist rocket I still wouldn't count him out.  That guy is freakin' inspirational.

Thats just me, I would look at it as a challenge.  Then again, when I was kid, me and my brother were so competitive we once stayed in the car after driving to my grandmothers house for a X-mas dinner to settle once and for all who could really roll the windows down and back up the fastest in my moms '80 Ford LTD.  We actually missed dinner and only stopped because they threatened to give our presents to our cousins.

[Ron Ankeny]

Paul:

I couldn't agree with you more. To me, shooting at a high level of proficiency with multiple platforms is the goal. I like to play a multitude of games with various toys and be repsectable with all of them. My goal for the coming year is Master Limited, Master Open, and Master L10 with a single stack. Who knows, I might even start playing with a revolver again.

The penalty to be paid by shooting so many different pistols is not knowing just how far I could go if I picked just one division and gave it all I am worth. But that's not my goal so it really doesn't matter.

[Paul Sharp]

"My point exactly. Jerry gets paid to shoot, gets his ammo paid for, etc. So did Ed McGivern."

Not really my point though.  Jerry might get paid to shoot, now, but he had to get to that level first, than came the sponsorships.  Its like that in any sport.

Matt Burkett mentioned in an article that he had hardly any money for ammo when he started so most of his success was built on a consistent dry practice routine.  D.R. Middlebrooks has told me the same thing.  Almost every shooter I know has relayed the same type of story.  No ammo and no money for ammo in the beginning, they get to a certain level and eventually get some sort of sponsorship.

In every case though, the skill came first, then the sponsorship.

To me, thats just an excuse and a poor one at that.  It really only serves to discredit a superior athlete.  It like saying, "the only reason he is a better shooter than me is because he is sponsored".  

A)  Its an ego based statement that detracts from the true meaing and benefit of competition.

 Its a cop-out.

My answer to those types of statements is always, less television or whatever distraction, and more training.

[Paul Sharp]

Ron,

Right on!  Your motivation is pure as well, to satisfy your performance objectives.  Good luck!

[mcginnes]

MM, You argument seems to be that it's OK for sponsored shooters to go learn another weapon, even though it won't help with their major weapon, because someone else is picking up the tab; But, we mere mortals can't afford to waste the time and money to do the same. That argument doesn't hold water.

Do you think that someone walked up to Jerry et al. on the street and said, "Hey, here is a big pile of ammo, and some money. Go learn to shoot, and call me when you get good?"

We all practice on our own dime. After years of practice, and thousands of dollars in ammo, some have earned sponsorship. They did not get to that level by wasting time and money. Sponsors are not going to give money and ammo to a shooter to go do something that hurts (or doesn't help) their shooting.

You are off base, and off topic. Let it go.