Multi-Gun Proficiency

[benos]

Sorry, I'm hating myself for responding, but - I honestly feel that everything I do in life, teaches, or at least possesses the potential to teach.

be

[38supPat]

No I just deleted everthing that wasn't contributing to the thread

[38supPat]

Ok more accurately I was deleting posts that detract from the thread and the general well being of the forum and its members

[George D]

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Quote: from TheItlianStalion on 1:17 am on Dec. 18, 2002

If you took a Bullseye only shooter and suddenly threw him into IPSC, he'd be a fish out of water. However, if you took a seasoned IPSC shooter who knows the fundamentals of accuracy, I guarantee he'd do better than the average shooter. My $.02.

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Hi Jake,

Much as I hate to disagree with you, I have personal experience with this situation. At a former club there were facilities for accuracy-oriented shoots and action-oriented shoots. The guys that started and improved to a reasonable level in the accuracy-oriented matches crossed into the action-oriented at a similar reasonable level and improved there as well. Those that started in action went across to accuracy at a low level and stayed there. Admittedly the action was PPC-like so the variability of IPSC may be a factor, but perhaps the result may not be entirely as you envisage.

[Jake Di Vita]

George,

The idea behind that post was that a Bullseye shooter would probably not have the ability of high speed seeing needed to be successful in IPSC style competition. The key in my phrase was a "seasoned" IPSC shooter. I agree if you took someone that was somewhat of a neophyte IPSC shooter and put them into an accuracy-oriented sport they would probably be stuck at the lower ranks. Such as if BE, TGO, TT, or any number of others, who have developed the ability to shoot with extreme accuracy, shot Bullseye, I guarantee they would be nowhere near the bottom of the pack. A seasoned Bullseye shooter would have the ability to shoot with extreme accuracy as well, but usually not with extreme speed.

Hope this makes sense.

[George D]

Jake,

Yeh, your making sense. I was more relating to my mortal experience rather than the skills of those that you mentioned with god-like ability. But it's interesting to note that Brian started in PPC and impressed TGO when he crossed to IPSC.

As a for instance, a B-grade shooter with 5 years experience in air-pistol, centre-fire, blackpowder, free pistol would shoot C-grade in Service (PPC like) and quickly improve to B or A-grade. A B-grade Service shooter with 5 years experience would go to the above accuracy disciplines at D-grade and never improve. There's probably an interest/motivation factor in there somewhere as well.

All the best for Xmas

[Steve Moneypenny]

George, I don't fall into the group that puts anyone above mortal, I also don't understand how you can make the distinction between "mortals" and god's... maybe some check list i am missing.

I agree with TIS, I shoot IDPA SSP Master, and until recently very little USPSA at all. A friend who shoots only bullseye took me to a local club that shoots bullseye, no real formal rank strucure, I won the match in small bore, and large bore and am usually in the top 3 any given time i show up. I rarely practice bullseye, most of my practice is spent on USPSA style shooting now.

I have thought about my position, i'm going to try to shoot either my LDA in Limited, Production adn IDPA SSP, or my P16 30 in Limited, and IDPA ESP. If that all doesn't work out. then it will be time for another plan of action, Thanks for all the opinions.

[George D]

Smoney,

I was just refering to the reverence paid by club shooters to professionals who have reached the top in their chosen sport. Just a turn of phrase, nothing more.

I agree that Master grade shooters have little difficulty in crossing discipline boundaries at high levels. My observations related to my experiences with average club shooters. Good luck with your plan; hope it works for you.

[Ron Ankeny]

George D:

I guess we are getting into some major thread drift here. My personal experiences and observations are very similar to yours. From what I have seen, the vast majority of IPSC shooters who have not competed in one of the precision shooting sports have not developed the skill required to shoot a decent group. OTOH, there are shooters from the other disciplines who can shoot good groups, but they can not do it quickly and the concept of economy of motion is lost on them. I really do feel that shooters who have developed the ability to shoot itty bitty groups, such as a Master class PPC shooter have a huge advantage when coming into IPSC over those shooters who can not shoot a group. Just my two cents worth.

[THS]

I'm all about thread drift today.

TIS,

I have been playing both bullseye and USPSA for a few years, so I feel like I've seen enough to comment.

First, there are skills and experiences that can help the other discipline.  As an example, when I started bullseye pistol I had a hell of a time with 25 yd rapid fire.  Two striungs of 5 rounds in 10 seconds, with the goal being a 1.3 inch X ring or a 3 inch 10 ring.  If you dont shoot a 98 or better, you arent competitive.  It was a mental chore trying to shot perfect shots EVERY TIME.

I got out of Bullseye and went to IPSC for fun and a break.  I learned to shoot much faster too.  One day we shot LR Standards, back when the CM book was yellow and they were done by month, and as I finished the RO says "the time was good, let's hope you got all your hits."  I stopped and said something smart like "hits hell, there are only 2 that aint A's!"  That is exactly how they scored too.  As I watched the rest shoot I was astounded at the numbers of people who had misses!  The difference was that to me, a "bullseye shooter", 50 yards, strong hand, same 1.3 inch X and 3 inch 10 rings, was the norm for 33% of the shots in a match.  LR Stds was 2 hands, red dot, A zone, at 40 yards, so my mind said EASY.

A few years later I go back to bullseye and my performance skyrockets.  Why?  I now know not to rush through timed or rapid fire, heck I can shoot 6 from the holster in about 2, so why should 5 in 10 sec, with the gun aimed in, be a bother.  Mentally I'm at ease, shoot better and get confidence.  Next thing I know I'm winning at some significant competitions, go distinguished, make the presidents 100,  and some other stuff.  Confidence soars, it gets better still.   IPSC was they key to getting me to realize I could do this, and more, in the time limits.

I'm back to IPSC now; bullseye is a little too static and, well... boring, to me at this time.  But I look forward to long shots and timed fire standards.  There my bullseye experiences are more tested than in the normal,  "engage targets as they become visible" blaster stage.

Most Bullseye shooters can be taught the movement  and gunhandling skills to be competitive in USPSA.  On the other hand I've found that with the preponderance of USPSA courses being close targets, with comparatively large scoring zones, most club USPSA shooters I know never develop the pure accuracy skills to shoot 270 one hand shots at 50 and 25 yards and be competitive.  

There are exceptions;  Merle Edington shot with the USAMU bullseye pistol team one time when I was there and was quite competitive, despite fulltime practice on the action pistol squad.  TGO, Brian, and a whole host of others can turn it on in nearly any discipline.  But go to a club match and watch people complain about poppers at 50 yards, or watch how many shots it takes them to hit one, and you can see a difference.

Learning accuracy first, then speed of movement and gunhandling, is easier than the reverse, especially where time is such is huge factor in IPSC style shooting that we become fixated on it.

Just my experiences and thoughts (from a B-class shooter no less)

Tom

[Ron Ankeny]

THS:

Sigh of relief here. I agree with every syllable of your post. There was an intersting post several months back about precision shooting. I made the comment that a good precision shooter could pull off somewhere in the neighborhood of 3 inch groups at 25 yards in an informal range setting. I was chastized but good and went away with my tail between my legs.

[George D]

THS,

Thanks for the great post. I live in Australia and our disciplines are quite different to those in the USA, so sometimes there is a jargon gap. You conveyed the idea that I was trying to convey but said it so much better.

[IPSC CHIK1]

an aside: Jerry Barnhart was blazingly fast before he became accurate. only then was he a consistent contender.

SharonAnne L2387