JGraham Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Hey guys. First off, what a great forum. Lots of great info. I need clarification on a rule. I recently purchased an M&P 9 2.0 FDE 5”. At the time, it was only available with the Thumb safety. Now they offer a model without. If I plan to shoot this gun in matches, can I remove the safety and plug the fram with the factory plugs that S&W sent me? I’ve searched this through and through and can’t clarify. If I can’t, here’s my next question... how in the world would an “official” ever know it was removed if I use the factory plugs? I’ve already verified with Smith that they only make one frame, it’s just simply plugged from the factory. Additionally, considering the gun is offered BOTH ways, does that make it a “legal” alteration? Thanks in advance, and I apologize already as I’m sure you’re tired of this question. Again, just read many different opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 plug it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kraj Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 If it has a trigger safety you wouldn't even need to use the thumb safety. It's probably technically illegal in production, just like switching glock frames, but I wouldn't worry about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGraham Posted January 17, 2018 Author Share Posted January 17, 2018 Haha thanks guys. Plugging away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueBulletBeaker Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 I am primarily a SS shooter, but I occasionally shoot a standard M&P Pro 5" in Prod without a thumb safety. I recently shot the 2.0 FDE like yours. After that, I was trying to figure out how to put a thumb safety on mine. It makes a perfect thumb rest, or what I call a *thumb rest [generic]*. Might be worth it to leave it on there and ride it with your thumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGraham Posted January 17, 2018 Author Share Posted January 17, 2018 BlueBullet, I agree. It does feel good, however I’ve noticed more comfort on the M&P without the safety. Just feels better to me. I own 2, so I’m going to plug one and leave the other stock and see which I ultimately prefer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay63 Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 If the plug is factory supplied and found on their other guns plugging it would be Okay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatJones Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 Appendix D4 says:"Remains in effect – external- and externally operatedsafety mechanisms must remain operable. (nochange)Special Notes/Clarifications:• For purposes of this clause, a “trigger safety” is externally visible, and must remain operable.• For purposes of this clause, the prohibition on “disabling” means that you may NOT modify an external safety mechanism in any way that affects its function as a safety per the OFM design."While you are not likely to get caught, removing the external thumb safety is not legal in production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MonkeyPlague Posted January 18, 2018 Share Posted January 18, 2018 1 hour ago, PatJones said: Appendix D4 says: "Remains in effect – external- and externally operated safety mechanisms must remain operable. (no change) Special Notes/Clarifications: • For purposes of this clause, a “trigger safety” is externally visible, and must remain operable. • For purposes of this clause, the prohibition on “disabling” means that you may NOT modify an external safety mechanism in any way that affects its function as a safety per the OFM design." While you are not likely to get caught, removing the external thumb safety is not legal in production. This. Unless the DNROI makes a ruling for plugging/removing/deleting manual safeties for production. While it's very unlikely that it would be noticed it doesn't look like it's in accordance with the rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGraham Posted January 18, 2018 Author Share Posted January 18, 2018 I want to be within the rules so I don’t get to a large scale event and get DQ’d. But at the same time, I just don’t see how they’d ever know. It’s literally the same exact thing without the safety, just simply plugged at the factory. Makes Zero sense (but after all, I don’t make the rules and I can respect what it is.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 On 1/18/2018 at 1:11 PM, JGraham said: I want to be within the rules so I don’t get to a large scale event and get DQ’d. But at the same time, I just don’t see how they’d ever know. It’s literally the same exact thing without the safety, just simply plugged at the factory. Makes Zero sense (but after all, I don’t make the rules and I can respect what it is.) per the rules you can not remove a safety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 On 1/18/2018 at 1:11 PM, JGraham said: I want to be within the rules so I don’t get to a large scale event and get DQ’d. But at the same time, I just don’t see how they’d ever know. It’s literally the same exact thing without the safety, just simply plugged at the factory. Makes Zero sense (but after all, I don’t make the rules and I can respect what it is.) You wouldn’t get DQ’ed, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGraham Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 (edited) But answer my question. How in the world would they ever know? It’s literally the same hung as ignorant purchased without. They would never know that it had a safety on the gun (I have since purchase another without for what it’s worth.) Edited January 23, 2018 by JGraham Quite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGraham Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 On 1/21/2018 at 10:32 AM, bret said: per the rules you can not remove a safety. But answer my question. How in the world would they ever know? It’s literally the same hung as ignorant purchased without. They would never know that it had a safety on the gun (I have since purchase another without for what it’s worth.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 52 minutes ago, JGraham said: But answer my question. How in the world would they ever know? It’s literally the same hung as ignorant purchased without. They would never know that it had a safety on the gun (I have since purchase another without for what it’s worth.) Who would know? You would know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGraham Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 (edited) 44 minutes ago, Sarge said: Who would know? You would know. Aye aye, Sarge (from a Marine!) Edited January 23, 2018 by JGraham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 13 hours ago, JGraham said: But answer my question. How in the world would they ever know? It’s literally the same hung as ignorant purchased without. They would never know that it had a safety on the gun (I have since purchase another without for what it’s worth.) if you cheat and get away with it, it is still cheating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Just email DNROI and get him to agree with you. Now it's not cheating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, Chris Keen said: Just email DNROI and get him to agree with you. Now it's not cheating. unless its an official ruling, it is just an opinion and doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 26 minutes ago, bret said: unless its an official ruling, it is just an opinion and doesn't matter. It is the boss's opinion, that tends to matter . Another way to think about it, you get penalized & appeal, you are not going to lose that fight when the judge is your star witness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bret Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 1 minute ago, IHAVEGAS said: It is the boss's opinion, that tends to matter . Another way to think about it, you get penalized & appeal, you are not going to lose that fight when the judge is your star witness. if the Arbitration panel follows the rules and I show in the rule book I can do x, then Troy's opinion doesn't matter, he is not on the arbitration committee. If Troy is a witness and I am on an arbitration panel, he will have to show me an official ruling or rule to say something is or is not allowed, his opinion doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 Ya figure they are not going to start by asking the guy in charge of explaining the rules to explain the rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeBurgess Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 1 hour ago, IHAVEGAS said: Ya figure they are not going to start by asking the guy in charge of explaining the rules to explain the rules? I most definitely would ask him for an explanation of any opinion that was not directly supported by the rule book, or published ruling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAFO Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said: I most definitely would ask him for an explanation of any opinion that was not directly supported by the rule book, or published ruling. I would kind of like an explanation of the published external hammer ruling, which is in direct violation of D4, 21.6. I have a feeling that major rule changes are in the pipeline for Production, but I think that it would have been better to let them come about via a rulebook revision, rather than rulings and emails. To the OP, since you have purchased another pistol without the safety, is there a reason you don't just use that one (or at least, that frame)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IHAVEGAS Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 2 hours ago, MikeBurgess said: I most definitely would ask him for an explanation of any opinion that was not directly supported by the rule book, or published ruling. We are mixing two different things together. Can anybody make up new rules, no. Do we have someone designated to help with a consistent interpretation of what is written, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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