PCC start "stock on belt" ?

[p7fl]

Someone please explain why the PCC start “stock on belt” is the default start position with USPSA classifiers.

I tore my rotator cuff and while healing have switched to a 22 rifle for Steel Challenge.  

My PCC rifle finally arrived in time for a USPSA match on Saturday.

I was surprised to find out that almost all the classifiers have a “stock on belt” start requiring  lifting the stock of the rifle from belt to eye level.

Seems dumb.

If Steel is one method, why not stay with what works. Clearly an aiming point makes life a tiny bit more difficult for a stage designer but makes a heck of lot more sense than “stock on belt” which is anything but “Practical”.

TIA

[Darqusoull13]

As a MD I'd cite rule 5.9.2  10.2.10 (edited per Chuck's comment below) and let you start at whatever is possible until you're healed up. Stock on belt is a standard position in rifle competitions (IPSC). It's another way of describing Port Arms. There's less than a tenth difference between stock on belt and low ready for me. 

Edited August 21, 2017 by Darqusoull13

[Flatland Shooter]

1 hour ago, Darqusoull13 said:

There's less than a tenth difference between stock on belt and low ready for me. 

 

That's because you practice.  For many its closer to 1/4 second or more difference.

 

Other than classifiers, few stages at local matches start with stock on belt.

 

I may be somewhat delusional but thought I'd read somewhere that Troy prefers stages start with low ready.  Can anyone confirm?

 

 

Edited August 21, 2017 by Flatland Shooter

[p7fl]

3 hours ago, Darqusoull13 said:

As a MD I'd cite rule 5.9.2

 

I can't find 5.9.2... ?.. thx

[ChuckS]

4 minutes ago, p7fl said:

 

I can't find 5.9.2... ?.. thx

He may be looking at the IDPA rule book for some reason. USPSA has 10.2.10 to cover your situation.

[p7fl]

Thanks, definitely not a fit. :-)

Still looking for why the " stock on belt" is the default for for classifiers?

I don't ever remember that ever being discussed by the membership or NROI updates and I've been a CRO for 15 years.

[Darqusoull13]

25 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

He may be looking at the IDPA rule book for some reason. USPSA has 10.2.10 to cover your situation.

Old rulebook, cell phone Google fu fail. Chuck has the correct new rule number, 10.2.10 

[Flatland Shooter]

1 hour ago, p7fl said:

Thanks, definitely not a fit. :-)

Still looking for why the " stock on belt" is the default for for classifiers?

I don't ever remember that ever being discussed by the membership or NROI updates and I've been a CRO for 15 years.

 

Found in the PCC Best Practices (found in the Rules section),  "Default/normal start position: Facing downrange, carbine held in both hands, stock on belt or shouldered, muzzle downrange."

 

I don't know if its considered the "default" PCC start position for classifiers, but check out the classifier WSBs.  Most of the classifiers specify "stock on belt" start position.  Some like CM03-03 will add "muzzle on "x" but for the most part, they are stock on belt and muzzle downrange.

 

Though the NROI indicates this is the USPSA version of "port arms", it does not require the the muzzle to be pointed upwards (like they do in the 3GN Club Rules).

[ChuckS]

8 minutes ago, Flatland Shooter said:

 

Found in the PCC Best Practices (found in the Rules section),  "Default/normal start position: Facing downrange, carbine held in both hands, stock on belt or shouldered, muzzle downrange."

 

I don't know if its considered the "default" PCC start position for classifiers, but check out the classifier WSBs.  Most of the classifiers specify "stock on belt" start position.  Some like CM03-03 will add "muzzle on "x" but for the most part, they are stock on belt and muzzle downrange.

 

Though the NROI indicates this is the USPSA version of "port arms", it does not require the the muzzle to be pointed upwards (like they do in the 3GN Club Rules).

One thing to keep in mind is that the "Suggested Best Practices" document is not a rules document. They may get incorporated at some later date, but for now, not rules.

[Hammer002]

I was unaware stock on belt is a "default position" for classifiers or any other stage.  Currently, my understanding is "default" for PCC is your choice of low ready or stock on belt unless the stage description specifically states a starting position.  Though its not a "rule," this is the suggested practice by USPSA with no rules contrary to it as of now:

 

"Default/normal start position: Facing downrange, carbine held in both hands, stock on belt or shouldered, muzzle downrange. Fingers will be out of the trigger guard, and the safety must be applied if the carbine is loaded. This equates to either "port arms" or "low ready". NO uprange starts while holding the carbine!"

 

I have found this is something that is evolving.  Most all classifiers specifically state a starting position for PCC being stock on belt.  The local matches here are almost all going to "stock on belt."  Many times they are also specifying where to be pointing/facing/aligned.  I don't mind too much.  Low ready start is extremely fast if you are immediately addressing a target, but its a wash if you have to move to another position on the beep anyway.  The evolution also seems to be adding "standing behind X" so as not to allow the tip of the muzzle touching the X while the shooter is stretched to the side as far as he can reach.  The stock on belt at least makes for something resembling a skill to accomplish similar to a draw with a pistol.  As far as the medical handicap, there are rules that could fall under, but that is true for many situations in this game. 

 

I will agree, Steel Challenge rules and USPSA rules could better mimic each other, like let me come to the line with my PCC or RFRO ready to go and walk away when I'm done.  Even the proposed new rules are letting you use a "3 gun cart" but no transport from cart to box, must be cart at box.  Geez.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Hammer002

[p7fl]

"Evolving"

Definitely. My core issue is where or who came up with belt start and decided that is the way to go with most classifiers?

I've never seen any discussion.  Then again I never paid attention to PCC until last weekend.

(Leave the "physical limitation" out, it is a red herring, just a rotator cuff that is healing.)

I wish to argue with the concept of belt start being added to almost all classifiers.

Let's evolve to half shoulder and half belt.

[ChuckS]

1 hour ago, p7fl said:

"Evolving"

Definitely. My core issue is where or who came up with belt start and decided that is the way to go with most classifiers?

I've never seen any discussion.  Then again I never paid attention to PCC until last weekend.

(Leave the "physical limitation" out, it is a red herring, just a rotator cuff that is healing.)

I wish to argue with the concept of belt start being added to almost all classifiers.

Let's evolve to half shoulder and half belt.

Mike and Troy worked the PCC stuff. If you have a comment, send it up through your section coordinator/area director...

[OPENB]

I think they had to come up with something so the classifiers could be shot. That is just what was settled on. Not everything little thing has to be discussed. I don't recall discussion for start positions for any classifier for any division. Because they don't need to be.

[p7fl]

18 minutes ago, OPENB said:

 Not everything little thing has to be discussed.

 

You are late to the party. Question was asked, and answered by ChuckS.

Lock it up and thanks.

[Southpaw]

When PCC first started I didn't like idea of stock on belt as it's not a natural way you'd ever hold a carbine; however, now after shooting, and more importantly ROing other PCC shooters, I think stock on belt is good for the default start position. 

 

I've ROed a few PCC shooters who think low ready is pointed down only about 10 degrees instead of about 45. I hate as an RO having to correct shooters on their start position just like if their hands aren't hanging "naturally at sides" for pistol shooters. So I prefer start positions that aren't subjective. Stock on belt is easy, is stock touching shooters belt? If so, good to go, no question of if muzzle is pointed at right angle like with low ready.

 

And I don't like idea of requiring MDs to mark spots for PCC shooters to point muzzle for low ready. Some MDs already don't like PCC, we shouldn't make it harder to set up stages by adding extra work just for PCC shooters. Plus if they're putting a stake in ground to point at sometimes where you want muzzle to point might be in middle of stage and then a tripping hazard.

[Patrick Scott]

15 hours ago, Hammer002 said:

I will agree, Steel Challenge rules and USPSA rules could better mimic each other, like let me come to the line with my PCC or RFRO ready to go and walk away when I'm done.  Even the proposed new rules are letting you use a "3 gun cart" but no transport from cart to box, must be cart at box.  Geez.

Current rules allow you to pull your PCC(USPSA) from your cart/bag/case away from the line(pointed at a berm or backstop) and carry it vertical to the line for make ready. There is no need to drag your cart/bag/case to the line. Or I read your message wrong and you understand that for USPSA, but you are talking about Steel Challenge being different. I dont follow the SC rules.

Edited August 22, 2017 by Patrick Scott

[GrumpyOne]

3 hours ago, p7fl said:

 

You are late to the party. Question was asked, and answered by ChuckS.

Lock it up and thanks.

We don't lock threads outside of the classifieds unless they violate forum guidelines. 

[Hammer002]

7 hours ago, Patrick Scott said:

Current rules allow you to pull your PCC(USPSA) from your cart/bag/case away from the line(pointed at a berm or backstop) and carry it vertical to the line for make ready. There is no need to drag your cart/bag/case to the line. Or I read your message wrong and you understand that for USPSA, but you are talking about Steel Challenge being different. I dont follow the SC rules.

 

Yes, understood for USPSA.  There is currently, in my opinion and experience, confusion transferring the rules to Steel Challenge in that rifles and rimfire pistols not in a holster need to be cased until told to make ready even though there is a posted appendix for PCC seeming contrary to the other rules.  The 2017 World shoot specified all rifles had to be cased between stages, but even that is a bit vague and I don't know how it was specifically implemented.  Cased until make ready, or cased in transport to the location of the next stage.  I think there is great need for some unity between USPSA and SC.

 

This is the submitted draft for changes to Steel Challenge and where I made the cart reference from:

 

https://uspsa.org/document_library/2017/New SCSA Rule Book20170712.pdf

 

5.3.8 "If clear, hammer down, holster" or for PCC, "If clear hammer down, flag". After issuance of this command, the competitor is prohibited from firing. While continuing to point the firearm safely downrange, the competitor must perform a final safety check of the firearm as follows:

 

5.3.8.3 Rimfire Rifle, show clear, and case. (Trigger need not be pulled.) Note: The bolt may remain locked back or closed on a chamber flag.

 

5.3.8.4 Pistol Caliber Carbine: show clear, close the bolt, pull the trigger, flag or lock the bolt open, and case. Note: the bolt may remain locked back or closed on a chamber flag.

 

5.3.8.6 If the gun proves to be clear, the competitor must holster or case/bag their firearm.

 

5.3.8.7 For Rimfire Rifle and Pistol Caliber Carbine the preferred method of transport is with a case or scabbard that covers the trigger guard and trigger; however, "3-gun Carts" may be used. When transporting rifles uncased in a 3-gun cart the use of chamber flags in each rifle is required. The muzzle of the rifle must point in a safe direction while in the cart.

 

 

And this is where I have some issue/confusion:

 

In the appendixes, under "handling requirements" it states -

 

Rifle to be transported in a closed case or "3-gun" cart until the Make Ready command is given. When transported in a 3-gun cart the muzzle must point in a safe direction and an empty chamber flag must be used.

 

Which basically means any rifle must be left in the cart or case until the make ready command is given, making me drag my cart (if using one) to the line.

 

 I will also point out there has been an addition to the steel challenge rules section with a copied appendix from the USPSA PCC appendix labeled steel challenge at the top allowing transport of a PCC vertical to the line, but no such provision allowing the practice for any rimfire rifle.  Unless I am confused.  I know that is the expectation currently at the local matches I go to.

 

 

Edited August 23, 2017 by Hammer002

[Patrick Scott]

Ahh, gotcha. I agree