Who is winning?

[CHA-LEE]

From what I understood (I was on his squad) it was his own reloads.

[RJH]

I don't think Dave was running a striker fired gun at the limited nats. He is going to at the lim 10 nats. though.

[dirty whiteboy]

I don't think Dave was running a striker fired gun at the limited nats. He is going to at the lim 10 nats. though.

Correct, Limited 2011

L-10 FNS 40 L

[PPGMD]

As far as paper vs electronic, that was brought up at the USPSA Members meeting with Phil and a couple of the board members.

They (as in USPSA HQ) had issues with electronic scoring at a couple of other matches, so they went to paper for the Back to Back nationals. But apparently they beefed up the stats shack, so they had scores out 7 minutes after the last shot fired with only one error that didn't affect the score.

Edited October 8, 2015 by PPGMD

[Dpr17]

Trent and the Nats stats crew did an awesome job! Results got pushed almost hourly throughout the three day match.

[bret]

Anybody know what happened to Nils?

On a reload he broke 180, he was shocked when they called him on it, but he handled it like a true sportsman, he disagreed with it but did not argue or even show any signs of being upset.

I am sure he was but handled it grwat, stuck around pasted, set up steel and encouraged his squad.

He is a true sportsman and gentleman, his squad was obviously bummed bit it does happen.

[bret]

Trent and the Nats stats crew did an awesome job! Results got pushed almost hourly throughout the three day match.

They are great, was surprised how quickly they get scores up, they had a lady driving around picking up score sheets all day, better not get in her way.

Trent and the team did a great job and Trent can't even shoot Nationals because he is out if town now, but he was there 4 days I know of, probably longer.

[mosher]

I agree it was the smoothest and fastest run scoring I've seen at any major match. I'm a big fan of using practiscore in the local match I run, but as a shooter at a big match I'd love to see it done the way they did it this week.

[BritinUSA]

With PractiScore it would be possible to have a running stage/leader board for the top contenders, assuming that they were all one the same squad. Doing that with paper scoring is possible but it would be not be instant as it is with the electronic scoring.

This would allow realtime coverage of the match so viewers could watch the the performance and get the HF at the same time, once all the top shooters in the squad have shot that stage then a stage leaderboard could be show indicating who won the stage and a match leaderboard showing the effect of those scores on the overall results.

[mosher]

For this match I would shoot a stage, and when our squad would finish the stats golf cart came and got sheets, and before we were done walking through the next stage I would get an email alert from USPSA with the updated scores. Every single time.

[austex]

I agree it was the smoothest and fastest run scoring I've seen at any major match. I'm a big fan of using practiscore in the local match I run, but as a shooter at a big match I'd love to see it done the way they did it this week.

As an RO at this match and many other national and major matches, I strongly prefer to use paper scoring. It's much more efficient at the stage level when a paper backup is required and the schedule is critical.

At the club level, though, we brought Practiscore online in early 2012 and have been very pleased with it for the local matches.

[euxx]

As an RO at this match and many other national and major matches, I strongly prefer to use paper scoring. It's much more efficient at the stage level when a paper backup is required and the schedule is critical.

At the club level, though, we brought Practiscore online in early 2012 and have been very pleased with it for the local matches.

Could you please elaborate how paper score sheets make you more efficient?

In my understanding, for the paper backup you would be just copying down already totalled hits and the rest of review screen. Is there more into that?

Edited October 9, 2015 by euxx

[Jim Norman]

WOW! Paper beats Electronics? Really? I've worked as a CRO at several major matches and served as Stats at two clubs since the early days of WinMss. Paper is good for three things. Starting Fires, Wiping your... and on rare occasion a back-up.

As for back up, the ONLY times I have ever needed a paper back up, they would have been useless and the shooter's score was simply never entered. everyone ASSUMED that other guy did it and the shooter didn't bother to look.

Have you ever sat and tried to decipher the chicken scratch that passes for handwriting from 20-40 different people? add in a little moisture and you got a real mess. Then add the staff hours to enter and cross check 7 stages for 100 shooters and tell me that paper is better. Only better for a Luddite RO. For everyone else electronics are the way to go.

Add to the actual scoring benefits, the ability to post continuously and virtually automatically given a connection and there is simply no reason to go to paper.

Just for the record, we made paper backups available and no one, not a single person took advantage at the club level. At a major match, I agree that copying the scores to a record sheet is a good idea. Just in case. Thankfully Justin rarely makes an appearance!

[bret]

As an RO at this match and many other national and major matches, I strongly prefer to use paper scoring. It's much more efficient at the stage level when a paper backup is required and the schedule is critical.

At the club level, though, we brought Practiscore online in early 2012 and have been very pleased with it for the local matches.

Could you please elaborate how paper score sheets make you more efficient?

In my understanding, for the paper backup you would be just copying down already totalled hits and the rest of review screen. Is there more into that?

At IPSC Nationals we used tablets then put the scores on paper, shooter signed them and we left the sheet with the CRO.

Nationals we had printed score sheets for each stage, put our label with name and shooter number on the white copy and after it was scored, we signed off, got our copy, the CRO or RO kept the original, a lady in a golf cart would cone pick them up.

I saw her at least one time on every stage I shot picking up score sheets.

Without the shooter having a paper copy of their score, how can they verify they got the right score and contest it if necessary?

[mosher]

I use practiscore for the match I run, and couldn't imagine doing without as a match runner. That said, as a competitor at nationals, the paper scoring was flawless. The best compliment being you just never noticed it, it always worked and never caused a hiccup. That may be a result of them having a ton of elfs in the back room hand jamming scores in or something, but whatever they did, it was the best I've seen it done from the front end, competitor perspective.

No "holdup.... scrolling" between the 9th-10th targets, no "hang on, something is on my screen", no "hold up guys we'll start the 5 minutes shortly they bringing us another nook". No "aw crap, I scored the wrong person, get Bill he knows what to do...", and no "we plan on doing live scoring updates, but the widget or the wadget broke and the website is doing this or that and you'll get them 6 hours later."

[euxx]

This is funny and all, but all those things can be also applied to the paper scoring:

No "holdup.... scrolling" between the 9th-10th targets, no "hang on, something is on my screen",

"Wait, I've lost my pen", "my pen doesn't work", "oh crap, score sheet is wet and I need an umbrella/bag/shade to protect it"

no "hold up guys we'll start the 5 minutes shortly they bringing us another nook".

"Hold up, we are waiting for him to bring a sticker" or "waiting for RM to bring a new reshoot scoreseet", "wait, we don't have his scoresheet"

No "aw crap, I scored the wrong person, get Bill he knows what to do...",

"Hold on, we need two new scoresheets and two new stickers" or "I will fix it all real quick (scratching it all over the top, so stats can't read not a damn thing after that)"

BTW, to reassign to another shooter or stage in PractiScore, tap on the menu icon (3 vertical dots) in the top right corner of the review block and select corresponding action. So, next time you could leave Bill alone.

and no "we plan on doing live scoring updates, but the widget or the wadget broke and the website is doing this or that and you'll get them 6 hours later."

This is the best one, because all the same applies to EzWS.

And all that is not counting entering errors, wrongly totalled hits, incomplete hits on some targets, missing time, unreadable time, missing stickers on scoresheets and several people locked in the statch shack for several days, punching numbers into computers.

Edited October 9, 2015 by euxx

[euxx]

At IPSC Nationals we used tablets then put the scores on paper, shooter signed them and we left the sheet with the CRO.

Nationals we had printed score sheets for each stage, put our label with name and shooter number on the white copy and after it was scored, we signed off, got our copy, the CRO or RO kept the original, a lady in a golf cart would cone pick them up.

I saw her at least one time on every stage I shot picking up score sheets.

Without the shooter having a paper copy of their score, how can they verify they got the right score and contest it if necessary?

First of all you can still give shooter a copy for the summary sheet (can use same carbon copy paper for that).

However, what exactly you are going to contest? Let's look at what is happening at the stage in bothe cases.

Paper scoring:

* scores are entered on paper,

* totalled up (possibly incorrectly),

* scoresheet signed by RO and competitor and competitor gets a copy,

* paper scoresheet is sent to the stats office,

* scoresheet is processed and entered into computer (possibly incorrectly),

* verification report is posted (at the range or online),

* competitor compares his scoresheet copy with verification report (possibly finds data entry errors)

* competitor reports data entry errors to the stats office and they are fixed

Electronic scoring:

* scores are entered into computer right off the targets

* RO copy summary to paper, both sign and competitor gets a copy

* competitor reviews the summary screen and taps "Approve"

Now, the only contesting issue I am aware of (and it applies to both paper and electronic) is when scores are entered on a wrong competitor scoresheet (and not caught at the stage). However, with electronic scoring you don't even need a copy of your paper scoresheet. You only need a proof that you have shoot stage at specific time and that will be enough to find your score and do a score swap as needed.

Admittedly there are few potential issues with lost scores while doing electronic, but they are easily avoidable if MD and stats setup would do some basic due diligence when setting up scoring gear (like locking stages to devices and enable local/sdcard audit score log on devices).

Edited October 9, 2015 by euxx

[bret]

I shot and was an Imbedded Range Officer with a squad in IPSC Championship.

I shot Nationals.

The score system for Nationals seemed to flow better from my point of view.

We had abandoned couple of reshoots, waiting for an sticker was not able problem.

The score sheets were specific to each stage.

I think it worked very well.

One question I have, for all the people complaining about the paper scoring and the updates during the match.

Did you shoot it?

Did you work it?

Did you even go?

[euxx]

I shot and was an Imbedded Range Officer with a squad in IPSC Championship.

I shot Nationals.

The score system for Nationals seemed to flow better from my point of view.

I just asked you to elaborate on that. What exactly was the difference?

We had abandoned couple of reshoots, waiting for an sticker was not able problem.

Not sure what this supposed to mean.

PS: for the record I've shot numerous matches that used paper scoring and I shot over half a dozen large matches at Frostproof and at other places where they used PractiScore.

[bret]

Auto correct sucks.

It should have said.

We had a couple of reshoots.

I shoot at club level matches and use practiscore, this was my 1st paper only match for score.

In a club level match if your score is screwed up, no big deal.

Not the same in a level III match.

Not getting correctly scored on a target can move you a place or two, maybe more.

I am not that good so it's not a big deal for me, but for the other shooters it is.

Once the stage is scored in practiscore. How can a shooter keep track of his hits?

I have 21 score sheets and could use them to me sure my scores are entered accurately, ,without them, there is nothing I can do.

[bret]

The difference between IPSC and Nationals Scoring.

I ran the pad in IPSC, then after it was scored had one score sheet for the whole squad, wrote the total on the sheet, the time, procedural etc. On the paper sheet, with the procedural error.

Then had the shooter sign off.

So I was juggling the electronic score sheet and putting it down on paper, then get the sheet signed.

I shot and worked IPSC.

In nationals I only shot it, we used stage specific score sheets, at registration I was given 30 labels, with no reshoots I would only need 22, 21 for the stages shot and 1 for the chrono stage.

The paper only method seemed to work real well from my perspective, but I know a lot of work went on behind the scenes and they did a great job.

[euxx]

In a club level match if your score is screwed up, no big deal.

Not the same in a level III match.

Any specifics on the screwed up you are having in mind?

Not getting correctly scored on a target can move you a place or two, maybe more.

I am not that good so it's not a big deal for me, but for the other shooters it is.

Once the stage is scored in practiscore. How can a shooter keep track of his hits?

Do you mean hits on individual targets? You can ask RO to review them before approving/accepting the scores. After that you will have copy of the summary scoresheet with totals. There is no ground to contest individual target hits once scores are accepted.

I have 21 score sheets and could use them to me sure my scores are entered accurately, ,without them, there is nothing I can do.

With electronic scoring you'd have 21 copies of the summary scoresheets.

Technically it is possible to print the full scores, but I yet to see anyone willing to invest into the gear to do that at the match.

Also, technically you can also sync your own device with a master (though most MDs at the large matches won't let you do that) or review targets on one of the match scoring devices later.

The data on the target his is there and potentially could be made available when result are posted to practiscore.com web site, but so far no one requested anything like that.

[ZackJones]

As far as paper vs electronic, that was brought up at the USPSA Members meeting with Phil and a couple of the board members.

They (as in USPSA HQ) had issues with electronic scoring at a couple of other matches, so they went to paper for the Back to Back nationals. But apparently they beefed up the stats shack, so they had scores out 7 minutes after the last shot fired with only one error that didn't affect the score.

I've seen posts from Phil on Facebook saying he's had issues with PractiScore at matches. When asked for specific examples from myself and Ken Nelson he never provided them. All I can say is January 2016 can't get here soon enough.

[euxx]

The difference between IPSC and Nationals Scoring.

I ran the pad in IPSC, then after it was scored had one score sheet for the whole squad, wrote the total on the sheet, the time, procedural etc. On the paper sheet, with the procedural error.

Then had the shooter sign off.

So I was juggling the electronic score sheet and putting it down on paper, then get the sheet signed.

I see and thank you for the explanation... So it was mostly driven by MDs choice to use single sheet for the entire squad (probably a more cost effective option). Some matches have used per-shooter carbon copy sheets (1/2 or 1/4 size of a regular paper sheet).

Also if you attach tablet using velcro to something like this, it will help with juggling paper:

Edited October 9, 2015 by euxx

[Novie]

As a competitor, not an RO, I like PractiScore as I can see how everyone else is doing as soon as they shoot. I take a picture of my score as soon as I accept the score and have my copy to look over later.