Mags must start on table. Can't use Mag Pouches

[Yardbird]

I still think that if the WSB does not say that you can't use your pouches, you're free to stuff your pouches after the buzzer.

apparently this thread has started a fad. We had a stage like this yesterday but the wsb explicitly stated that you couldn't put any mags in your pouches.

Honestly, I think 'all reloads must come from barrel' has the clear intent of meaning you can't use your pouches (or magnets, for the nascar types), otherwise they would only say that all mags must start on the barrel.

As far as I can tell, the only real effect is to prevent people from using magnets, because with every stage design I've seen except 1 (at an outlaw match), it would only cost you time to put even 1 mag in a pouch.

So if you drop a mag on the ground, you can't use it?

[motosapiens]

I still think that if the WSB does not say that you can't use your pouches, you're free to stuff your pouches after the buzzer.

apparently this thread has started a fad. We had a stage like this yesterday but the wsb explicitly stated that you couldn't put any mags in your pouches.

Honestly, I think 'all reloads must come from barrel' has the clear intent of meaning you can't use your pouches (or magnets, for the nascar types), otherwise they would only say that all mags must start on the barrel.

As far as I can tell, the only real effect is to prevent people from using magnets, because with every stage design I've seen except 1 (at an outlaw match), it would only cost you time to put even 1 mag in a pouch.

So if you drop a mag on the ground, you can't use it?

wut? I would not interpret any rule or wsb that way, but I understand that people can be very creative in their arguments. If the glove does not fit, you must acquit!

Seems to me all reloads come from your hand, unless you stand the magazine up on the barrel and just slam the gun down onto it.

Edited February 22, 2016 by motosapiens

[Yardbird]

But I'd have to pull it from my pouch with my hand to put it in the gun. Same as ground to gun.

[motosapiens]

But I'd have to pull it from my pouch with my hand to put it in the gun. Same as ground to gun.

yep, so if the wsb says all reloads must come from barrels, or from pouches, then everyone gets a procedural for every reload. Problem solved. The reducto ad absurdum has worked!

[Yardbird]

LOL!

[Sarge]

Nice angle on solving that one!

[Yardbird]

I'm in Vermont, I drove up from Florida, due to the long drive I stopped for the night in New York. Did I not come from Florida?

[d_striker]

I still think that if the WSB does not say that you can't use your pouches, you're free to stuff your pouches after the buzzer.

apparently this thread has started a fad. We had a stage like this yesterday but the wsb explicitly stated that you couldn't put any mags in your pouches.

Honestly, I think 'all reloads must come from barrel' has the clear intent of meaning you can't use your pouches (or magnets, for the nascar types), otherwise they would only say that all mags must start on the barrel.

As far as I can tell, the only real effect is to prevent people from using magnets, because with every stage design I've seen except 1 (at an outlaw match), it would only cost you time to put even 1 mag in a pouch.

So if you drop a mag on the ground, you can't use it?

You just have to put it back on the barrel, take your hand off for 1 second, and then you can use it again.

[motosapiens]

I still think that if the WSB does not say that you can't use your pouches, you're free to stuff your pouches after the buzzer.

apparently this thread has started a fad. We had a stage like this yesterday but the wsb explicitly stated that you couldn't put any mags in your pouches.

Honestly, I think 'all reloads must come from barrel' has the clear intent of meaning you can't use your pouches (or magnets, for the nascar types), otherwise they would only say that all mags must start on the barrel.

As far as I can tell, the only real effect is to prevent people from using magnets, because with every stage design I've seen except 1 (at an outlaw match), it would only cost you time to put even 1 mag in a pouch.

So if you drop a mag on the ground, you can't use it?

You just have to put it back on the barrel, take your hand off for 1 second, and then you can use it again.

but then it will still come from your hand, not the barrel. lol.

[JON]

Don't see why not. And I hope this doesn't go 6 pages.

[basman]

Don't see why not. And I hope this doesn't go 6 pages.

To late for that!

[mactiger]

Well you might be right, but until DNROI tells me otherwise, I'm not buying it.

First Production Nationals I ever shot, in 2010, there was a stage that said "all magazines must start on barrels, all reloads must come from barrels, and no magazine may be carried on the person at any time."

I remember it clearly because I picked up two magazines from a barrel, reloaded with one, held the other one in my hand while shooting a couple of targets, reloaded with that last one, engaged the last targets, and got 5 procedural penalties for those last 5 shots because I reloaded from the magazine in my hand that I picked up from the barrel.

I would have made 1st Master at my first Nationals ever (17th overall) without those five procedurals, and since the RM was called to the stage when I argued the procedurals and he upheld them all, I'm thinking that apparently the WSB can indeed specify not only that you can't use mag pouches, but also that you can't do anything other than pick up mags from barrels and put them straight into the gun.

Don't know if the current DNROI would have upheld that, but DNROI at the time certainly did, plus it was a Nationals stage so I assume NROI looked at it. (And the current DNROI was also an RM at that Nats, I think.)

Just as a point of clarification, if John made that call, he made it without consulting me. And, FWIW, I can't find a current rule that supports that penalty. In the 2008/"through 2010" version of the rulebook, (which would have been the one we ran the match under) there was no provision allowing in-the-hand carry under 5.2.4 as there is now. So, sorry about the bad call, but technically it should have been a move to Open under the rules in place at the time. There was a ruling made in 2011 covering carrying them in the hand--that would not have been in place for the 2010 Production Nationals. I've copied it below, FYI. But, even though I was there, I don't recall the problem, nor was I consulted on it.

3.2.1 and 5.2.4 put a lot of power into the WSB with regards to magazine placement and useage. How magazines are staged and used can be spelled out, but it must be specific and clear.

Here's the ruling from 5/8/11:

Rule 5.2.4 is interpreted to mean that when the equipment has to start with the magazines or speed loaders in retention devices attached to the belt, for those divisions that have position restrictions of holster and other equipment, they must be in compliance with Appendix D item 12, unless stipulated in the WSB that places them on a table or similar start and not in the retention devices for the start position. Further, spare ammunition, magazines and/or speed loading devices carried in the hand after the start signal are not subject to the equipment position restrictions of Appendix D, Item 12.

[jcc7x7]

Troy just wrote about this in the uspsa down range email I received today.

Seems like start on and only are the key words

[Gary Stevens]

Yep. I just salute and say "yes sir".

[d_striker]

I can accept that a WSB can state that you can't use your pouches. But I don't agree that "all reloads must come from barrels" means you can't use your pouches.

[Nik Habicht]

I can accept that a WSB can state that you can't use your pouches. But I don't agree that "all reloads must come from barrels" means you can't use your pouches.

Would it help if it said "All reloads must come directly from barrels, and may not come from any mag pouch?"

[Yardbird]

I can accept that a WSB can state that you can't use your pouches. But I don't agree that "all reloads must come from barrels" means you can't use your pouches.

I totally agree with this!

[d_striker]

I can accept that a WSB can state that you can't use your pouches. But I don't agree that "all reloads must come from barrels" means you can't use your pouches.

Would it help if it said "All reloads must come directly from barrels, and may not come from any mag pouch?"

Yes. If a stage designer doesn't want shooters to use their pouches they need to explicitly say so in the WSB.