QUERY 'BOUT LYMAN SLUG vs LEE KEY

[RaymondMillbrae]

OK, folks,

here's the deal.

One of the things I have discovered, was that if I reduce the powder charge on the Lyman 525-grain sabot slugs too much, they will have a tendancy to skyrocket upward at 50-yards. (I am using a Remmy 870P, 18" inch, smooth bore shotty).

I was originally loading the Lyman 525-grain sabot slugs as per the Lyman reloading manual. (26-grains of Universal Clays @ 1328 FPS). But along the path to finding a nice "low recoil load," I took it down to 24-grains.

The new loads felt pretty good. (Earlier I had pretty much zeroed the original load at 50-yards, and I could keep them within an 10" group while rapid firing with my Remmy 870P shotty). But with these new "low recoil" loads, I noticed that they were shooting over 9" inches high at 50-yards. And on top of that, the groupings were pretty inconsistent.

What the...?!

I posted a question about this on another thread, and I believe it was Benny Hill that said it was due to the "longer barrel time".

This made me scratch my head.

Why would the longer barrel time (slower FPS's) cause the slug to rise? Was it something to do with the aerodynamics of the slug?

If it is, could someone please explain it to me. (In laymans terms, please).

This got me to thinking even deeper. Maybe I should just keep them hot, and keep to the original load data. (26-grains @ 1328 FPS).

Then I got another thought...maybe I should just go down to the 1-ounce Lee Key slugs. And when this new thought came to mind, the next obvious question was "Hmmmmm...I wonder which would be more accurate, The Lyman 525-grain sabot slug, or the 1-ounce Lee Key slug"?

Has anyone figured this out yet?

And also, how do the Lee Key slugs perforn with a smooth bore shotty?

Reasoned answers would be appreciated.

In Christ: Raymond

Edited January 26, 2010 by RaymondMillbrae

[RePete]

The slug is in the barrel longer during recoil and muzzle rise, therefore the trajectory becomes a larger arc.

[Intel6]

It has been a while since I have messed with loading my own slugs but I distinctly remember that the Lyman slug was more accurate over the 7/8 & 1 oz. Lee slugs in just about everything I tried.

Neal in AZ

[RaymondMillbrae]

RePete,

that was exactly my thinking as well. But when I checked my thoughts with my shooting pardner, he mentioned the possibility that it could be the aerodynamics of the round...or something thereof.

So I decided to ask, just to be on the safe side.

Intel6,

it is funny that you should mention that (Lyman sabot slugs being more accurate), as I have heard some folks say that the Lee Key's are more accurate.

But like I prefaced with my original question, I wanted to have reasoned answers...and if you have shot them both before, PERSONAL EXPERIENCE trumps all.

I will keep those thoughts in mind as I continue my slug journey.

Thanks!

In Christ: Raymond

Edited January 27, 2010 by RaymondMillbrae

[SLM]

Read kind of an interesting article about slug shooting not too long ago. Some sort of slug shooting competition where you buy the targets for two or three bucks, shoot them in front of a range officer to certify the distance and then mail them in for judging.

I remember one of the things in that article about shooting small groups was to really hold the gun down. Slugs more slow so the longer it is in the barrel the longer the muzzle has to rise in recoil. The popular slug for the competition was some sabot style with a fairly high (for a slug) velocity.

[David Sinko]

I can not put together any kind of slug load with either the Lee 1 oz. slug or a round ball that will stay inside the C Zone at 50 yards. I have tried all kinds of wads and smooth and rifled barrels with no success. What kind of accuracy are you getting?

Dave Sinko

[barrysuperhawk]

I can not put together any kind of slug load with either the Lee 1 oz. slug or a round ball that will stay inside the C Zone at 50 yards. I have tried all kinds of wads and smooth and rifled barrels with no success. What kind of accuracy are you getting?

Dave Sinko

I had the same type of issues. My solution ended up being 26gr Universal Clays under the lee 7/8oz slug for just under 1500fps. If I go up or down a bushing size [to the published max] my groups go to hell. I think what the poster above said about how long the slug is in the barrel might be on to something there...

Edited February 14, 2010 by barrysuperhawk

[Harmon]

i shoot the lee 1 oz over unique powder in a single shot rifled gun and cant get it to group.

50 yards is minute of pie plate.

the lyman slug will send them into a giant cloverleaf.

the lee slug is cheaper, but not better in my opinion.

also in a smoothbore, ive noticed low recoil versions of the lee tend to de-stabilize at subsonic velocity near 75 yards.

[Graham Smith]

OK, here's what's really got me confused about this. All the "official" sources say that while the Lee can be used in either smooth or rifled bores, any sabot slug (including the Lyman) should only be shot with a rifled bore or the accuracy will be terrible.

[smokshwn]

a 1 oz. slug does not have any aerodynamics to speak of.

Benny's advice was dead on. With the increased dwell time in the barrel your point of aim rises due to the recoil cycle.

Edited August 18, 2010 by smokshwn

[jimmykan]

I read this on the shotgunworld forum:

Loading Lyman 525 gr. slugs for the H&R Ultra 12 gauge

jeager106

Post subject: re: Loading Lyman 525 gr. slugs for the H&R Ultra 12 gau

Mon Dec 15, 2008 10:10 pm

Some guys have a rellly hard time realizing the Lyman 525 was purosully desighed to tumble and fall to earth once sppeds drop to around the 900 to 1100 f.p.s. range.

That's why they are accurate to 75 very nicely.

Remember the old wasp waisted BRI?

It too was desighed to tumble and fall once it shed velocity.

Trying to make a 150 yard deer killer out of the Lyman 525 is a lesson in mental masterbasion.

I say this in the face of claims of guys shooting coyotes at 300 yards with Lyman 525 slugs.

Pure condensed cow cakes.

Perhaps the low recoil load is is marginally above 1100 fps, causing it to tumble sooner than the higher velocity load.

[M ammo]

Were you the guy on the Boolets forum??????

I have been loading the 525's that I cast,, and I like them,,

I have shot them in my bennelli,, and my 870,,, at 50 yards,,, they are Min,, of baseball..

They spread out,, past that like all slugs do..

Ok I found it,,,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WIn AA case

24.5 Herco

WIN 209

WAA12 wad

Lyman slug

Gives me holds of

50 dead ON

70 8 inch drop

100 20 inch drop,

the load runs my Auto,,,

and doesn't beat me too bad,

And if that is not you,,, someone is using you PIC!

Why yours is shooting funny????????

check your sights,,,, and re check your,, slug weights,, and powder,,, type weight,,, how old is it,, all that stuff,,

The Herco is working for me,,

jim

Oh ya,,, the lee key slugs,,, have not worked well for me,, they cast ok and fast,,, but they did not shoot near as well as the Lyman,, 525..

Edited August 20, 2010 by M ammo

[Graham Smith]

This whole business is driving me absolutely crazy.

According to Lee, the Lee Key is a sabot slug.

According to Lyman, their slug is a sabot slug.

According to Winchester and other manufacturers, "Sabot slugs are designed to be used in rifled barrels or in smooth barrels with a rifled choke tube. Rifled slugs are designed to be used in smooth barrels."

And yet, a lot of people here are reloading the Lee and Lyman slugs and, apparently, shooting them in smooth barrels with standard chokes.

Furthermore, people seem to be buying commercial slugs for 3-gun that appear to be sabot style as well and I know good and well that accuracy is pretty high on everyone's list.

Can someone please explain what is clearly a BIG discrepancy between what's recommended and common practice?????

[M ammo]

This whole business is driving me absolutely crazy.

According to Lee, the Lee Key is a sabot slug.

According to Lyman, their slug is a sabot slug.

According to Winchester and other manufacturers, "Sabot slugs are designed to be used in rifled barrels or in smooth barrels with a rifled choke tube. Rifled slugs are designed to be used in smooth barrels."

And yet, a lot of people here are reloading the Lee and Lyman slugs and, apparently, shooting them in smooth barrels with standard chokes.

Furthermore, people seem to be buying commercial slugs for 3-gun that appear to be sabot style as well and I know good and well that accuracy is pretty high on everyone's list.

Can someone please explain what is clearly a BIG discrepancy between what's recommended and common practice?????

For 3 gun shoot a smooth bore gun,,,,

If your hunting deer and ONLY hunt Deer with that shotgun, use a slug, barrel with rifling,

If you shoot Shot, in a rifled barrel you will get the doughnut effect,

Ok sabot, Lee and Lyman are talking about a Shot wad cup,,,, you put them in the wad to load them,,,,,,, shoot a bunch of slugs, whatever slug shoots the best out of your gun! Buy more of them,

Sabot just means it is in a sleeve of some sort, depending on what shells you buy,,, some have it some dont . Dont worry about that,,, just get slugs that work well in your gun.

Most people are shooting a reduced recoil slug of some sort,

Edited August 23, 2010 by M ammo

[RePete]

The sabot is the carrier for the slug.

The factory sabot slugs are hard plastic and will be engraved by the rifling, whereas the Lyman and Lee use a soft plastic wad for the sabot and it won't be engraved but may be cut by the rifling and fill up the grooves therefore creating a smooth bore unless cleanded after every use. The wad is to act as nothing more than a bore filler and to protect the bore from the leading that's usually associated with the Forster slug.

[Graham Smith]

OK, it seems I am approaching this wrong. The Lee and Lyman slugs are "sabot type" slugs and are intended for use in rifled barrels. But I see people here who are apparently discussing them for use in 3-gun with smooth bore guns which the literature says is very inaccurate.

I have also seen people referring to shooting manufactured slugs for 3-gun without any apparent distinction between sabot and rifled slugs. I often see references to shooting low recoil or managed recoil slugs but some brands are rifled and some are sabot and some companies have both.

Basically, I appreciate that most people know what they are doing, but I haven't a clue. Is everyone with a smooth bore shooting just rifled slugs or are some people shooting rifled and some shooting sabot?

[M ammo]

OK, it seems I am approaching this wrong. The Lee and Lyman slugs are "sabot type" slugs and are intended for use in rifled barrels. But I see people here who are apparently discussing them for use in 3-gun with smooth bore guns which the literature says is very inaccurate.

I have also seen people referring to shooting manufactured slugs for 3-gun without any apparent distinction between sabot and rifled slugs. I often see references to shooting low recoil or managed recoil slugs but some brands are rifled and some are sabot and some companies have both.

Basically, I appreciate that most people know what they are doing, but I haven't a clue. Is everyone with a smooth bore shooting just rifled slugs or are some people shooting rifled and some shooting sabot?

Ok,,, What is Accurate???? at 50 yards,, with the slugs I load,, from a rest,, I can hit a baseball... at 100 about the max for any slug,, I can hit a basketball,,, smooth bore,

I guess the Sabot is the wad in this case,,,

I used to shoot Winchester full on,, power PunKin,,, balls they have rifleing on them,,, they shot no better,, and beat on you,, pretty bad.. they touched the barrel, when shot,,

If you go to the Castboolits forums,, you can read up on some guys doing some slugs just for hunting from heavy barrel single shot guns, they probably,, get better shot groups,,,

I hope that helps,,?????????

[Graham Smith]

I hope that helps,,?????????

Thank you very much. There is a lot information that is subjective on this (and many other) topics. So it can be very difficult to know precisely what people are referring to.

The "books" say that you should shoot rifled out of a smooth bore and sabot out of a rifled bore. And both Lyman and Lee refer to their slugs as sabots, even though they use standard wads (Lee: Lee Slug Mold features the exclusive drive key. The drive key positively rotates the slug in rifled shotgun barrels.) And here is a summary line from one head to head test: "Shooting sabot slugs through a smooth bore is a waste of money. They will "work" but accuracy suffers and there is no reason to spend the extra money for sabot slugs if you are going to shoot them through a smooth bore. Besides, if they are not flying straight and nose-first, they will not expand as designed."

Ok,,, What is Accurate???? at 50 yards,, with the slugs I load,, from a rest,, I can hit a baseball... at 100 about the max for any slug,, I can hit a basketball,,, smooth bore.

And yet, clearly other people are not having the same results (I assume that this is with the Lyman). My guess is that there is enough of a difference between true sabot slugs (like you find in commercial ammo) and the mixed breed Lee and Lyman slugs to make a big difference in how they fly.

This makes me think that it's probably worth giving the Lee a try to start with and giving the Lyman a try later.

BTW, given that the Lyman mold and handles run about $100, does anyone sell pre-cast Lyman slugs? I can see a little cottage industry here, put together all the slugs, wads, hulls, everything but the powder, needed to make 25 rounds and sell it as a do it yourself starter kit.

Bingo... Gardners Cache

Edited August 24, 2010 by Graham Smith

[Younger]

Try this place out. http://www.ballisticproducts.com

They have component bags to load 25 rounds.

[M ammo]

I hope that helps,,?????????

Thank you very much. There is a lot information that is subjective on this (and many other) topics. So it can be very difficult to know precisely what people are referring to.

The "books" say that you should shoot rifled out of a smooth bore and sabot out of a rifled bore. And both Lyman and Lee refer to their slugs as sabots, even though they use standard wads (Lee: Lee Slug Mold features the exclusive drive key. The drive key positively rotates the slug in rifled shotgun barrels.) And here is a summary line from one head to head test: "Shooting sabot slugs through a smooth bore is a waste of money. They will "work" but accuracy suffers and there is no reason to spend the extra money for sabot slugs if you are going to shoot them through a smooth bore. Besides, if they are not flying straight and nose-first, they will not expand as designed."

Ok,,, What is Accurate???? at 50 yards,, with the slugs I load,, from a rest,, I can hit a baseball... at 100 about the max for any slug,, I can hit a basketball,,, smooth bore.

And yet, clearly other people are not having the same results (I assume that this is with the Lyman). My guess is that there is enough of a difference between true sabot slugs (like you find in commercial ammo) and the mixed breed Lee and Lyman slugs to make a big difference in how they fly.

This makes me think that it's probably worth giving the Lee a try to start with and giving the Lyman a try later.

BTW, given that the Lyman mold and handles run about $100, does anyone sell pre-cast Lyman slugs? I can see a little cottage industry here, put together all the slugs, wads, hulls, everything but the powder, needed to make 25 rounds and sell it as a do it yourself starter kit.

Bingo... Gardners Cache

The Lee was $20,,,, my guns,,, liked the Lyman much better,,, so I shoot them.. if you have never cast,,,, lead,,, one short tip,,,, haet the mold, on top of the pot,,then try to fill it,,

it is a big pellet just like the .177 air rifle after all.. the load I posted... with the load data,,, works in a semi! that is key,,, sighting your gun in and knowing your drops,, is on you! I was zeroing at 50 yards,,, but then went to a 75 yard zero,, it works for me,,

load them and test them,,,,,, it is the only way to know 100% Testing,,,knowing,,, and not guessing,,, will help your game!

[Graham Smith]

load them and test them,,,,,, it is the only way to know 100% Testing,,,knowing,,, and not guessing,,, will help your game!

Yup. I can get 100 slugs for $30 from this guy and test all kinds of loads. If I like them, then I can decide if it's worth the price of the equipment, and the hassle, to mold my own.

[M ammo]

load them and test them,,,,,, it is the only way to know 100% Testing,,,knowing,,, and not guessing,,, will help your game!

Yup. I can get 100 slugs for $30 from this guy and test all kinds of loads. If I like them, then I can decide if it's worth the price of the equipment, and the hassle, to mold my own.

Lyman.....525 slugs????????

I can drop some in the mail if you want to test some. how many do you want?

[Graham Smith]

I can drop some in the mail if you want to test some. how many do you want?

Thanks very much. I may take you up on that.

I'm just starting to get setup for reloading shotgun (and I need more room on my bench) and was trying to decide if I wanted to get the necessary equipment to cast my own stuff and if so, what. But since it would appear to be practical to shoot the Lyman slugs and more cost effective at this point to buy them pre-cast, then I can put the issue of what casting equipment to buy to the side for now and just move on with the rest of the gear.