JD45 Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 Between 1988 and 1992( I can't remember the issue) Ross Seyfried wrote an article in Guns&Ammo about building a combat 1911. For the uninformed, he is a former IPSC world champ, and is about the most well rounded gun-writer you could imagine. He believed in 22lb. recoil springs in his gov.t .45. He shot 5.7grs. of W-231, and cast 230gr.RN in practice( but he did mention using jacketed and Hornady factory 230s in some matches). However, his story about a trigger job is amazing. He said that he was somewhere in Africa and, I forget how, met a guy that took his 1911 apart in his garage and within minutes polished off a 1.75lb.(no typo, under two pounds)perfect, crisp, trigger job. Others previously told Ross that it wasn't possible if you needed durability. Ross claimed that he sometimes went 2000rds. before cleaning, and always shot a match with a dirty(min. of 200 rds. burned)pistol. He stated that a 1911 needs to be well lubed, stressing to "keep the goo fluid-like". Most of all, he has always held firm to the fact that if a pistolsmith tells you that his 1911s need to be clean to work, find another smith. My questions are : Is there something to this 22lb. recoil spring theory? and, Are there any gunsmiths that can give us what Seyfried wanted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 JD45 Ross is one of my pistol shooting heros of all time. Met him and his then wife, Judy, at the Natl's in '80 in Virginia. He was the defending champ, but John Shaw won it that year. Ross was very unassuming and not (at the time) very impressed with his achievements. Kind of a good old boy who worked cattle for a living. I dryfired his pistol after the match and it certainly was not 1.75 lbs. More like 3 lbs. Asked him his set up and he at that time shot the load you mentioned with a stronger than standard recoil spg in it, about 18lb or so. His whole thing was reliability, and then shoot A's. He was not the fastest out of the leather or with the first shot but his splits were good for the day, and his stuff always worked; and he shot LOTS of A's. The timeframe you mention is after I knew him and probably when he was trying to gain his PH license in Africa, so I can't comment on what the pull might have been on his pistol at that time. He did insist that the pistol stay well lubed, also. sorry that I cannot verify what the real set up was, but it is really cool to find someone who remembers one of the real gentlemen this sport produced, and reminisce for a minute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD45 Posted December 19, 2003 Author Share Posted December 19, 2003 Tightloop, thanks for that first-hand knowledge. Its nice to here stories like that. You see, I learned to shoot pistols from reading Seyfried's articles, and I really look up to him too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 I've always greatly enjoyed Seyfried's writing. I have a copy of the issue of G&A containing what I believe is the article you're referencing. No 1.75 pound in the bush trigger job story, but he does get deeply into his ideas of what makes the perfect 1911, area by area. In the article he comments on light - sub 2-pound - trigger pulls, and says something to the effect of "this is lighter than is really safe or practical. You're much better off with a durable trigger pull in the 3 to 4 pounds range" or somesuch. It's a great article, with those wonderful sepia toned photos Ross did, of various of his 1911s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD45 Posted December 19, 2003 Author Share Posted December 19, 2003 While writing that post I had a hunch that I might have read about the overseas trigger-job in another issue(now I Know, you're right). But, I promise that he did tell the story almost extactly as I mentioned. I look foward to some posts on his heavy recoil springs. Does anyone think that it is a winning set-up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry White Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 PF on that load would be around 190, I bet he did have some spring in it. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianH Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 Since he shot hardball (or equiv) in matches he felt that the heavy recoil spring gave more recoil control (slow the slide cycle) and that it helped sight tracking or somethingtothateffect. I believe that's what I read. I saw a similar article years ago, wherein he showed his Frankenstein match .45, and then a beautiful custom he said he had built in SA. I swear it was done be Leibenberg, but he didn't say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherErik Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 Does anyone think that it is a winning set-up? No. If it were, everybody would be doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Carter Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 I shot with Ross many times but never got the chance to check out his pistol. It really sounds out of character for Ross to even want a 2lb trigger. Back then they were very few aftermarket parts available and certainly nothing like the trigger parts we have now. It was difficult to get a really light trigger but it was SOP to either hold the trigger back or hold onto the hammer when loading. That let you get away with trigger jobs that would be unacceptable today. He won matches by using equipment that worked all the time and shooting well and steady. In the old days many matches were won just by having a gun that worked. I do remember Ross favoring heavy recoil springs and lots of others did too. Ross is a very physically strong person and I don't know anyone who holds a 1911 any harder than him. The old techniques were to hold the gun as tight as possible and use every muscle in your body to try and control recoil. We thought that worked pretty good till Robbie and Brian came along and kicked everyones ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 Wasn't Major power factor pretty high back in his day? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPSCDRL Posted December 19, 2003 Share Posted December 19, 2003 Wasn't Major power factor pretty high back in his day? Yes and it was tested via a ballistic pendulum. Factory hardball at around 830 fps was the standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD45 Posted December 20, 2003 Author Share Posted December 20, 2003 Let me clarify my post. I know that Ross believed in normal 3lb. triggers for carry and I've read that he used the same in competition. The story of the guy doing an under two pound trigger job on Seyfried's 1911 was written by Seyfried himself, probably in Guns&Ammo, but it is out there. What sucks is I had all of those magazines, and they were given away five years ago when I had to "downsize" my gun mag. collection. I reread his articles many times through the years, so I know it is in print. I still want to here more opinions on over 20lb. recoil springs. By the way, thanks to Ross Carter! Great information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 JD45 While I am a big fan of Ross Seyfried, I don't think I would ever intentionally use a recoil spg of 20 lbs or more in any pistol I was shooting. Part of the fun of getting a new gun and getting it dialed in is getting the spring set up just like you like it. for me, the heavy spring causes the front end to bounce after the gun is finished cycling and slows me down "seeing what I need to see" to let the next shot go. finding the right spring to use is a personal thing. I like it to be just a bit heavier than the lightest spring that will cycle the pistol 100%. For me, with it set up as I described the front sight settles into the notch much less violently than with the heavier spring. Unless you are shooting at arms length, your splits are determined by how quickly you can determine you have/have not the correct sight picture and let the shot go. Noone can negate the recoil of a large caliber auto pistol so you have to match the slide speed, front end bounce, sight recovery time with the spring which allows you to do those things the fastest. For me, that would be about 12 lbs in a 5" gun, major PF in .45. I am trying to sort out this very thing in my new .40 STI right now. Damn ain't this stuff cool. I love getting a new pistol and getting it dialed in just like I like it. I know this still does not answer your question, but I would have to echo one of the earlier posters, I don't think a heavy spring is beneficial to good shooting in this sport, in normal circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD45 Posted December 20, 2003 Author Share Posted December 20, 2003 Thanks for your time Tightloop. That is good food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Carter Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 JD45, I've been searching my memory banks and I'm starting to feel like I remember the article your talking about. Next time I get a chance to see some other dinosaurs I'll ask around. To be clear, the heavy springs were part of the whole package, heavy loads, heavy bullets, very tight grip, and you whole body in tension while shooting. Ross would make it appear that his gun had no recoil. Of course now we know thanks to Robbie and Brian that being all tensed up makes it very hard to transition and just shoot fast in general. I think going back to that style of shooting would be a big step backwards. By 1988 the balistic pendulum was gone, BTW it was calibrated with a Commander shooting factory hardball. 45 of course! If you know how to contact Michael Plaxco I bet he could tell you, he was very close with Ross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 I still want to here more opinions on over 20lb. recoil springs. I have read enough posts on these shooting forums to say that you will find very few B-class or highier shooters using a 20lb. recoil spring. Even fewer (if any) at the Master/GM level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 JD I've seen MANY new shooters have malfunctions and the #1 cause BY FAR is too much spring in the slide. Think of it as a *feeding* spring, not a "recoil" spring. Don't worry about beating up your gun. (2nd place is ammo - chamber check all your match ammo for at least a year or so) Too much spring is like a ticking time bomb - it's waiting for the moment when you need to shoot weak hand only, or around a barricade, or scrunched down behind a low-low port. That's when your stance is gonna have more "give" than your standing-up stance, and that's when your gun is going to choke. If your ammo is at 165-175 power factor, listen to the common wisdom on this forum and use a 12-15 lb spring. 14 being very very common. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianH Posted December 20, 2003 Share Posted December 20, 2003 One thing about the power factor was that the year Ross won the world title, he was practicing and shooting matches with factory ammo. He had 2 cases given to him by Hornady, and one from Federal. 230 gr. factory ammo circa 1981 was nothing near 165-175 pf, so comparing to todays IPSC handloads is kinda meaningless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 One thing about the power factor was that the year Ross won the world title, he was practicing and shooting matches with factory ammo. He had 2 cases given to him by Hornady, and one from Federal. Just curious, where did you hear that? It's just I remember reading an article from Seyfried, circa late '80s where he was replying to a comment regarding his being the first guy to do a five second El Prez - the person had said, "An ammo company gave Ross unlimited ammo and he just shot and shot until he did it." That's not really germane to what you're discussing, it's just that RS's comment in reply was, "No ammo company has every given me free ammo, I've always paid for my own." Or words to that effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD45 Posted December 21, 2003 Author Share Posted December 21, 2003 Keep up the good work everbody. I can't get enough. I want you all to know that there are still people who love to here stories of good folks and good days past. I wish all of you oldsters would share more war stories and wisdom with us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrianH Posted December 21, 2003 Share Posted December 21, 2003 What happened was years ago Jeff Cooper was talking to some gun rag about sub-5 second el Prezes, and Cooper said something like "....they gave Ross Seyfried a wherehouse full of ammunition and had him shoot El Presedente's all day long....." The info was a letter from Seyfried replying to that comment, in which he said "the sum total of ammo given to me was three cases....two from Hornady and one from Federal, which I used to practice for the World Shoot." I assume this was '81, and in the G&A article you speak of is where he mentioned using the heaver recoil spring to control the ball ammo load. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JD45 Posted December 22, 2003 Author Share Posted December 22, 2003 I found something related today. Not the lost article, but a new one that is sort of connected.It is called"Anatomy of a Trigger Pull", by Ross Seyfried, in the Feb.2003(no.221) issue of Handloader magazine. In this article, his topic is a machine called the Dvorak Instruments Trigger Scan, and he used it to test several firearms. The interesting part is where he tests and comments about 1911 triggers. First, he says that his Pachmayr Combat Special that won the World Championship was "tweaked by Dale Guthrie, a competitor of mine from South Africa". It tested a hair over 3lbs.. The next paragraph I'll quote word for word: "We can contrast this pull with one on another Colt by Paul Liebenberg(of S&W Performance Center fame) and to me the best 1911 trigger man in the world. He could make them hold, with hardball, at about one pound! This trigger is crisp and just less than 2.5 pounds- by all rights the "perfect" trigger. It is really easy to hit with this one, and the pistol is certainly a favorite." Merry Christmas! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Didn't Paul Liebenberg come out of South Africa too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric nielsen Posted December 22, 2003 Share Posted December 22, 2003 Yes. Paul Liebenberg and Claudio Salassa too. [briley] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLOYDK Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Hi all I know I'm late to add to the Dale Guthrie, Ross Seyfried story, but here is my bit of info: The world shoot took place in South Africa in 1979, and 1981 (Ross won 1981). Dale Guthrie was a competitor. He is also the best 1911 "TWEEKER" in Africa. I have the privilege of having a few of his 1911s. My Late father and mother used to shoot with Dale (At Guthries Shooting Range), and he did a government model, and a Goldcup for my father, and two Goldcups for my mother. My first 1911 I bought, was his, that he had used to qualified at Nationals. STILL HAS THE GREATEST TRIGGER. I have shot continuously since 1980 with it and it still runs. The story of the quick fix in the garage I can believe, as I had my 1911 Springfield hammer follow. Gave it to Dale. He took it apart got a file and an oil stone, I had a can of cola and my gun was ready to go. (Never had the hammer follow again) The first 1911 has had its firing pin plate replaced twice and 2 barrels, one split during a steel challenge, but she still works. If anybody know of any other article or work Dale has done please let me know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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