Martial Arts

[PistolPete]

I disagree with the Tai Chi in one aspect. All the movements are done in a slow rhythmic motion which will help balance etc. but, it will not teach you to be fast and that is what you want to help your shooting. The things with arts such as Tae Kwon Do you better have quick eye coordination for the simple fact that you will get hit without it. Every Martial Art has its pros and cons it's just a matter of which is best for you.

I also disagree with learning from books and videos. They are great for someone who has at least some formal training. The problem is that without proper instruction you will learn "bad" habbits which will cause problems. Something as simple as not chambering your leg properly when kicking can cause major damage to you and if you decide to get formal training could take longer because bad habbit are tough to break.

[Ironman]

In regards to Pistolpete's comments, I think that Tae Kwon Do would be more advantageous for speed but if a person cannot participate in the art without sustaining injuries or complicating existing injuries then an alternate form should be considered. Balance or "center" is critical in all forms of martial arts and I think just as critical in the shooting arts.

I agree with Pete's comments regarding learning from books and videos as I stated in my first post. I also think that with an art such as Tai Chi there is not the potential for injury that you would find in Tae Kwon Do. To practice their slow moves may be less complicated then learning how to chamber a kick and not hyper extending the knee upon execution.

I will say again that I am not experienced in Tai Chi so I will stand corrected if we have an expert that says it cannot be learned via books and videos. Books and videos would never be as good as getting professional instruction but it may help.

JMTCW

Jim

[slughammer]

Bill, I've read all the post and your comments and would make one or two suggestions.

I think as compared to running, any form of kick boxing would be benneficial for the shooting sports. You'll get some upper body work that the running doesn't do. The is speed and power involved in the use of your hands and feet would be beneficial.

If you're not looking for a structured class/belt format of martial arts training, you still have options to learn.

First would be to prevent injuries (don't hyper-extend anything and you should be ok).

Most instructors give private lessons, perhaps one in your area could train you a few times at 5:00 and you could take it from there.

Billy Blanks?? Remember Tae Bo? My wife has the tapes and they are not bad. You won't learn a kata or earn a belt, but you can get a good work out at 5:00am. (Beginner to advanced).

Good luck.

[kdj]

The Martial Arts cover a very wide spectrum so it really depends on what it is you are hoping to get out of them. By analogy to the shooting sports, olympic free pistol would help IPSC performance in a very different way to what you'd get out of, say, sporting clays, no?

If you are looking for specific physical conditioning, then "external" arts like Muy Thai or TKD would be very helpful.

If you are looking to understand "Mental Training" or efficient and effortless use of your mind and body, then "internal" arts like Tai Chi or some forms of Aikido would be directly applicable.

In either case, I doubt you'd get all that much out of video tapes. You need correct kinesthetic feedback from a teacher who can observe what you are doing to get things right. What you think you see is not always what you need to get

The Martial Paths can be very rewarding and a valuable adjunct to most aspects of life. I became interested in IPSC to extend my Aikdio training so there's some reciprocity here somewhere ...

Kevin

[Steve Moneypenny]

With all due respect to pistol pete i couldn't take a different position,

In shooting we learn to engrain motions slowly. and most importantly BE FLUID not to let the sights bounce un nessicarily. there is nothing that tai-chi excells at more than in fluidity.

Tae kwon do and karate in all of their harsh snapping speed do not create for fast shooting, where shooting requires much more finess.

tai-chi and yoga will greatly help your b alance adn flexibility without agitating or creating new injuries. not to mention teaching you to breathe properly ( some karate/TKD schools teach this also, but not to the same extent)

I also don't see how following along with a tai chi video can hurt anyone. trying to learn the deeper aspects of the art can't be done without personal instruction though.

aikido is an interesting art that blends internal and external, it may help, but wouldn't be my first choice for an art to help my shooting.

[PistolPete]

I still totally disagree (for myself anyways) BUT that is the great thing about the Martial Arts. Every system has something different to offer. And, because of that people will get different things within the same system and even the same instructor. I guess the point being made is that no matter what system you look into depending on your needs you will be able to benefit from it.

As for the movement issue and finess with a pistol then TKD is great for that. A great fighter will move without his head jumping up and down. Your body moves but your head stays level. This is ideal for practical shooting. That is ideally what you are looking for.

But on the other side regarding Tai Chi, fluidness is def. just as important so then yes that system would also help your shooting.

So which one is better?

That's the only problem with the Martial Arts. No system is "BETTER" than another. Just depends on the students needs.

[tightloop]

As a nonpractioner of any martial art, I have to say that I have enjoyed reading the comments associated with this thread. However, I have to drift the thread a bit and ask a question.

How do you guys find the time to become very proficient in more than one pursuit. I mean I have time to load, dry fire, live fire a bit, and go to some matches, but other than than, I eat, sleep, work and that is about all.

[rhino]

As a nonpractioner of any martial art, I have to say that I have enjoyed reading the comments associated with this thread. However, I have to drift the thread a bit and ask a question.

But you are a practitioner of a martial art. You practice some variant of modern pistolcraft.

How do you guys find the time to become very proficient in more than one pursuit.  I mean I have time to load, dry fire, live fire a bit, and go to some matches, but other than than, I eat, sleep, work and that is about all.

That's what I was talking about when I made the comment about most people not being able to ride two horses with one a** earlier. There are certainly people who can excel and more than one activitiy, but even they would be best served by concentrating primarily on one function. That does not mean that one can't benefit from some "cross training," and in fact the latter is almost always beneficial. It's just important to establish priorities and keep them in sight when choices and tradeoffs are necessary.

[Matthew_Mink]

There are certainly people who can excel and more than one activitiy, but even they would be best served by concentrating primarily on one function.

And that is a good example of thinking yourself into a limitation. I am glad nobody ever convinced me of that before I took up Shotokan and competitive shooting at nearly the same time.

[Ironman]

TL,

There was a time in my life that the Martial Arts were everything and I practiced any chance I got. When injuries limited my advancement I took up golf when frustration, time and money got in the way of that hobby I went back to what I did prior to martial arts and that was shooting. This hobby story happened after I got married to my lovely wife over 18 years ago. I am sure that my interestes will wander again before I die but I will always make time for my #1 love which is my wife and family. (Thanks Flexmoney) Weather it be USPSA, IDPA, 3 gun, knocking down some clays or the opening day of dove season I will continue with this, my favorite hobby. I may not ever be the best that I can be in the USPSA but that is not my intent. My intent is to have as much fun as I can, enjoy the practice and events.

Jim

[rhino]

And that is a good example of thinking yourself into a limitation. I am glad nobody ever convinced me of that before I took up Shotokan and competitive shooting at nearly the same time.

Taken out of context, your quote changes what I said. I said "concentrate primarily," but I did not imply "exclusively."

Human beings are not insects (thank you R. Heinlein) and shouldn't be overly "specialized" in daily life, but I don't think it's possible of most people to perform to their absolute potential in two sports at the same time.

Back in the late 1980s and early 90s when I was competitive powerlifter, that was made painfully obvious to me. "You" can't do justice to a full time job, a significantly strenuous sport, and some other activity all at the same time. Something is going to give sooner or later.

If you really believe that you can achieve 100% of your potential in both your shooting and your shotokan at the same time, then you've found a way to accomplish something most others can't do, or you're not really achieving your potential in one or both.

That doesn't mean you shouldn't do both. It means that doing both is a tradeoff that you accept.

[PistolPete]

As for finding time... Well I'm now only 27 years old but I have trained in the Martial Arts for over 18 years now. Growing up all I did was train, train, train and compete. I was working full time along with training 30 hours a week and competing on the weekends. Martial Arts were my main love in life. Well needless to say with all that training and competing for many years I kinda got burned out. I then got into pistol shooting but not competively. Along with that I was working on my car modifying it. I then got really seriously with pistol shooting and started competing. Now that is my focus. I'm trying to get to the status of shooting that I was in Martial Arts. Hopefully this will happen. If I had more time i would train harder with my Martial Arts but currently I only have time for shooting which is good enough for me!!!

[tightloop]

Got to say that I agree with Rhino. I don't think the average person can pursue more than one thing passionately at the same time. You are making compromises and may not be aware of it.

I have had three sporting loves in my life. Shooting, fly fishing and golf. Have been really good at all three, but never two or more at the same time.

[kdj]

How do you guys find the time to become very proficient in more than one pursuit.  I mean I have time to load, dry fire, live fire a bit, and go to some matches, but other than than, I eat, sleep, work and that is about all.

It's very hard to chase more than one rabbit at a time. I think it's extremely difficult to be trying to progress seriously in two "disciplines" at the same time.

It is more possible to "master" (and I use that term in the loosest possible sense ) one thing and then to take up another. As BE has said in some posts, as you get better at the IPSC game, you probably spend less ammunition per practice session. The same is true of the Martial Arts.

I used to spend at least 4+ hrs a day, 7 days a week, practicing Aikido. I had no time for anything else (sometimes including eating and sleeping). Now, after some time, I find that I spend less time actually in the dojo and more of my practice is integrated into the rest of the world, and so this gives time to devote to something else.

I don't know if I can become proficient at this shooting game though so perhaps I'm not qualified to comment on this point

Kevin

[Jake Di Vita]

I don't know if I can become proficient at this shooting game though so perhaps I'm not qualified to comment on this point

Why couldn't you become proficient at this sport?

[Matthew_Mink]

There are certainly people who can excel and more than one activitiy, but even they would be best served by concentrating primarily on one function.

Am I reading this wrong? It reads to me that you admit there are people who can do well in more than one hobby, but all of them shouldn't pursue more than one. That sounds pretty inclusive to me.

It reads to me that you are including everybody with dual (or more) proficiencies in that statement, and saying that all of them are giving up something. I don't agree with that. Looking back, I can honestly say I would not be nearly as good in both of my pursuits had I not trained in the other. And I know several other people that can claim the same. If people think that they can't pursue other interests because they believe thier first interest will suffer, then it will. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Much like Jake's quote and reply above mine, the poster doesn't know if he will ever become proficient, so he probably won't. If he believes he can do it, he can do it.

[kdj]

Why couldn't you become proficient at this sport?

I have no reason to believe that I can't but I have (as yet) no evidence to show that I can

I added that comment since technically while I have some background to comment on proficiency in some areas (like the one being discussed in this thread), shooting is not (yet) one of them.

I suppose I should be more careful about "tongue in cheek" emoticons

I intend to become proficient ... time will tell how I do.

Kevin

[Matthew_Mink]

I intend to become proficient ... time will tell how I do.

If the intent is there, the time for telling will be short, and proficiency will come.

[uscbigdawg]

I agree with Matthew. My day starts at 5am and ends at 11pm. Between morning workouts, an 8+ hour a day job, taking the proper supplements through the day, evening training in either Kendo or Iaido (depending on the night), doing the hour drive home, doing draws and reloads for an hour, finishing with the nightly pushups/sit-ups and reading for an hour or so, you can make the most of each day.

This year I have made the commitment to make Master class by June. In years past, it was my lack of focus and dedication to shooting that has stalled my progression and not the lack of time. The disciplines that I now study calm my brain down by allowing me to focus on the small things. Far too often I wander to lofty big picture issues. It will be because of all them that I reach all my goals, shooting and personal.

With that said, Bill, what I would suggest is first see a doctor on your ankle. It's not right that the injury reoccurs on the frequency that you're saying. As for your schedule, having a family definitely makes things difficult, because they are always your first priority. So, I would suggest that you contact local instructors, in all disciplines and discuss with them, what your goals are. Do not let the discipline dictate what you want out of them. Rather, let what you want from the training dictate which discipline to study. Then, discuss with, each instructor, their availability. They may tell you that evenings are better than mornings and with that, the gun handling practice will maybe have to move to the morning. Another option would be to get in some training at lunch (many employers are cool with a 90 minute or two hour lunches if you start earlier and/or stay later).

Three months ago, on my 29th birthday, I had my grand epiphany. I was overweight, out of ideal shape and really not excited about shooting. My career was my life. Since then, I've started working out again, eating right, shooting a lot more and have rededicated myself to not only reach my physical goals, but also reach my shooting goals. It's demanding but I know that it will lead me to where I want to be. Where YOU want to be, should be your focus. Make a plan to get there and commit (not follow) it.

Whatever you're going to do, you have to commit to it. Don't "make a decision". Decisions change. Commitments are a promise (in this case to yourself) that you will keep to the detriment of less important issues. Set your priorities and commit to them to the end. The best father you can be, the best husband you can be, the best person you can be, the best martial artist (shooting and others) you can be. I don’t know you at all but believe you and everyone else can reach their goals by committing to them. This site has been a large spark to my goals and thank everyone for that.

Just my two Lincolns. Best of luck and Happy Holidays.

Rich

[Maksim]

+20 on yoga. Just this weekend I amazed everyone and myself my one leg balance to lean around a wall and hit 2 targets. woot woot.

I started with martial arts (shindo ryu kickboxing), competed locally, and was about to start nationally however we moved to a different part of the state. Then in the past few years started swimming and yoga. The balance I learned from martial arts, years ago, was taken to the next level in yoga. most importantly, it is very low impact on joints.

About 2 years ago I tried Tae Kwon Do... and while it was almost tooo easy when compared to MMA/Street fighting styles like kickboxing/Krav/Thai (olympic flying/kicking vs street fighting), it was just tooooooooo hard on the knees. Especially since it was 90% kicking, 10% punching. Whereas Shindo Ryu Kickboxing was about 70/30 arms/legs. Since I could not find one locally, went back to yoga.

If you want something else to totally kick your butt.... try pilates.

[dwkfym]

Bill,

What are you trying to achieve through learning martial arts?

Ultimately, martial arts is supposed to make you a better fighter. All of the discipline, mental training, respect and other 'special' benefits perceived by the public have been developed through history and trial to make you a better fighter. Much martial arts in modern times have somewhat devolved, and while they emphasize all of the above, have forgotten that all of that means nothing if they don't actually train you to be a better fighter.

If that is your goal, I have a few martial arts to recommend you. It also helps to know what you are physically capable of, age, etc. Sorry I'm new here and don't know many of the members..

Some martial arts have become sports styles. Most of the time this has actually made the art more effective in developing fighters. Other times it has evolved into its own thing, and you should do those styles if you really enjoy the sport.

Other martial arts have gone stale and kind of become stagnant. A lot of this has to do with the instructor but its more prevalent in certain styles than not.

Great fighting styles:

-Judo, Brazilian Jujitsu, Japanese Jujitsu (the predecessor to Judo type, not aikijujutsu type), Boxing, Kickboxing, Knockdown type Karate (Kyokushin and its offshoots, shidokan types), Muay Thai, Other full-contact Kickboxing styles

Note: -Judo, Boxing are great fighting styles and also olympic sports and have developed and refined itself to very very high levels.

Other than that there is Kendo, fencing, and taekwondo. I've never focused on weapon arts so I have no comment on that. My guess is that kendo, despite all the criticisms, is an excellent art.

No pain no gain. Great way to tell if the particular school is going to make you a better fighter is to see how much sparring they do. The sparring needs to be live, full resistance, hard contact and continuous. This doesn't need to happen every day but they need to make it a regular thing for you to get better. There is no other way. Its like how dry firing alone will help a lot but never make you a great shooter on its own.

On the flip side, you don't want to go to a school where all they do is beat the crap out of each other. There is a good balance somewhere..

When in doubt, go to a proven school. Your local famous boxing school. Your local judo schools that produces a lot of trophies. Etc..

[dwkfym]

I seemed to have missed the point of this thread.

I've always wondered which martial arts is best for shooting. But down in my bones I know all good martial arts tend to merge into one style. There are only so many ways a human body can move, we all have four limbs, and limited weapons on our bodies. In a full contact environment, styles all tend to look alike and it takes a trained eye to spot the differences.

But from hand-eye coordination standpoint, boxing is probably the best. You'll develop the musculature needed for any stable shooting. You'll develop skills that allow you to time and coordinate many punches into a moving target. Most of all, you'll develop awesome footwork and speed.

[dwkfym]

I was about to make some posts on how I agree/disagree with kdj's post above until I realized how old this thread was 0.o

[monicataliani]

Sorry this post is delayed, but I just had to weigh in. I do tae kwon do and yoga. I definitely do not recommend trying to learn any using a tape. This even applies to yoga. It can result in injury if you are not doing them correctly. It also makes your workouts less effective if you are not practicing good form and do not know what the focus for each form is. I think any martial art or yoga style would help your shooting because of the focus on balance and awareness/familiarity/control of your own body that develops from practicing. Sparring will also help with the fast twitch muscles required on the stages. If the traditional class is not for you, once you learn the basics, you will better be able practice on your own. It is just important to know the foundations first. I bet once you go to a class though, you will be hooked. It is a lot of fun and the community of the classes is amazing!

To all the other martial artists on this thread, you all amaze me with not fighting about which is better! I have never understood that. To me, we should all stick together! And- it is great to see how many people shoot and do other martial arts as well! Awesome!