Ipsc Revolver Standard Division

[Vince Pinto]

Hi folks,

I'm looking for input on IPSC Revolver Standard Division, and here are the rules as they will apply from 1 January 2004:

• Power factor 125/170, with no minimum calibre or bullet weight for Major.
  
• No optical/electronic sights, ports or comensators permitted
  
• No limit on cylinder capacity, however a maximum of 6 rounds to be fired before reloading.
  

The other divisional rules are:

17. Any complete revolver (or a revolver assembled from components), produced by an OFM and available to the general public (except prototypes) is permitted.

18. Modifications such as weights or other devices to control and/or to reduce recoil are prohibited.

19. Modifications which are permitted are limited to:

++ 19.1 Replacement of, or modification to, sights, hammers and cylinder releases;

++ 19.2 Replacement barrels, provided the barrel length is the same as the OFM standard;

++ 19.3 Cosmetic enhancements which do not give a competitive advantage (e.g. plating, checkering of frames, custom grips);

++ 19.4 Modifications to the cylinder to accept “Moon Clips”.

20. "Self-loading" revolvers with retractable slides are prohibited in this Division.

When replying, please don't just say "XYZ sucks" - that's meaningless. If you have a suggestion, please state the item you would add, remove or modify and give your arguments. If you like the rules as they stand now, I'd also like to hear from you.

Thanks in advance.

[Liota]

Vince,

Doesn't the following contradict itself in principle?

"No limit on cylinder capacity, however a maximum of 6 rounds to be fired before reloading."

Does IPSC Standard Division limit the number of rounds you can have in the gun at one time? If not, then why does Revolver Standard?

The following makes sense.

"Power factor 125/170, with no minimum calibre or bullet weight for Major."

Pretty darned cool.

One last comment, Just what in the heck is a "self-loading" revolver? Other than one Jerry Miculek is shooting, because he is so fast and smooth it looks like the gun loads itself.

Liota

[Chuck D]

Vince, I think your "right on the money".

I've come to understand the 6 round limit. At first I was dead set against it but without it, a TON of 6 round guns would be rendered practically useless.

All I'd change is the power factor. I'd lower it to 160/165. Shooting 357 mag is an UGLY experience...

Of course...that's just my "sissyfied" opinion.

[Tom Mainus]

Liota,

http://www.mateba-arms.com/page2.html

There is a company that makes a self loading revolver. It basically cocks the hammer for you after every shot, thus making all shots after the first, single action only.

[diehli]

Two things I'd like to see changed. The allowance for an overtravel screw placed in the trigger should the competitor so desire. Better wording so that we understand that you can replace springs with other weights to improve trigger pull. The rules don't expressly forbid the second item, but it would make sense to address them. Those're about the only things that I'd think would make sense to have changed.

Liota, capacity isn't limited in IPSC Standard, but pistol size is... gun w/ mag inserted must fit in the box. Vince, I take it the box isn't required in Revo? The six fired thing makes sense to me... if you wanna play with your 8-round revolver and fire all shots, Production division seems to be the place.

Just thought of something else: does the cylinder release refer to the button/lever or the latch inside the frame that holds the cylinder? One of those mag catch/mag release relationships.

[Vince Pinto]

Tom,

Thanks for answering the question about "Self-Loading Revolvers" and providing the link. Frankly I doubt anybody would really want to use one in RS Division but, since we know about them, a single line in the rules now, avoids arguments later.

Liota,

The capacity rule means you can use an 8 rounder, and you can start with 8 rounds loaded, and you can reload with 8 rounds, but you can only shoot 6 before reloading without penalty, and Chuck is spot-on with the reason. Of course if you actually pull the trigger 7 times, but only fire 6 rounds (due to a dud round), there's no harm, no foul and also no penalty, so I guess you still have a slight advantage using an 8 rounder over a 6 rounder.

What we didn't want to do is limit, say, an 8 round speed-loader to 6 rounds loaded. It's no big deal during LAMR, but can you imagine reloading during a COF while the meter is running only to find out the hard way that, after you close the cylinder, the next trigger pull causes the hammer to strike an empty cylinder? Ouch!

Chuck,

I have no idea about the PF of factory 357 ammo. Are you saying that some factory 357 loads might not make Major? If so, would 160/165 remove any doubt? Or did I miss your point?

Gorilla,

No, we don't use "the box" for RS (or Production) Division - only for Standard and Modified - and the "cylinder release" option refers to the visible thumb release on the outside. However I think it's pretty clear that an internal trigger job is much more than "cosmetic" and it would also constitute "a competitive advantage". Rule 19.1 basically allows minor external "comfort" mods only.

Having said that, an overtravel screw is probably OK, but I'll run it pass the Rules Committee first before giving a firm answer.

[diehli]

AHA!

So Revo is more like Prod than Standard? I was under the impression from the hammer mod being ok that trigger jobs were okay, too... read too much into it.

For ignorami like me you'd need to clarify: internal modifications, except for minor detail polishing, are prohibited (or whatever the language is in Production). That "competitive advantage" language is the bane of my existence!

[spook]

I've said this before, but I think rules in revolver are pretty close to perfect. I wouldn't change a thing.

[shred]

I'd allow trigger jobs. There's only so far you can go with a revo before it'll stop setting off primers, and I'd rather not have to tell a competitor "So sorry, you are stuck with a 20 lb DA trigger because you have the stock R&S 597, while *I* bought the Factory Performance 597FP version with the 8 lb DA trigger." Besides, it's almost impossible to regulate or inspect for.

[spook]

Shred, I take it you're talking about Production and revolvers now, right?

[wide45]

18. Modifications such as weights or other devices to control and/or to reduce recoil are prohibited.

19. Modifications which are permitted are limited to:

++ 19.2 Replacement barrels, provided the barrel length is the same as the OFM standard;

Is a same length replacement barrel that is signifigantly heavier than factory standard allowed?

[shred]

Shred, I take it you're talking about Production and revolvers now, right?

For the purposes of this discussion, I'm taking revolver only. I believe that is the topic if this thread.

[Chuck D]

Vince:

Most 357 mag ammo is HOT...

Rather unpleasant to shoot, tough on the gun,the shooter AND the R.O.

By using the same P.F. as Open Division (ipsc 160 p.f.) the "spirit" of major pf. is still there buy it's less "obnoxious" and easier on the gun...and those around it when it goes off.

Guess I'm just getting older...

[Liota]

Tom,

Thanks for the information on the self-loaders. Cool stuff!

Tom & Vince,

We will have to agree to disagree with the round count thing. I don't agree with it. Never will. I see no good reason to not allow someone to shoot eight rounds in a revolver before a reload. It strikes me as protectionist and political, but for no reason.

Incidentally, why was it done in the first place?

Liota

[Vince Pinto]

Chuck,

OK, got it, thanks.

Liota,

Here's the thing - if we allow 8 rounders to shoot to capacity, the 6 rounders won't play. However if we allow everybody to load to capacity but to only shoot 6 between reloads, nobody has a capacity advantage. However we don't expect the +6 round capacity revolvers to only load 6, because of the distinct possibility they might close the cylinder on an empty chamber.

Consider Limited 10 in the USPSA. You can bring whatever capacity magazine you like, but you can only load 10 rounds, and this levels the playing field for those who only have 10 round magazines.

[Mover480]

Vince,

But difference between L10 and Revo is that the course is set up for shooting 8 shots from most shooting positions --- usually. So downloading a highcap to 10 rounds is no big deal. Shooting the course is still FUN! No standing reloads! Many opportunities to reload on the run.

Shooting a 6 shot gun in a course designed for 8 rounds is no fun! Standing reloads suck. The match ends up being who can reload the fastest. Not who can shoot the best.

With Production now allowing 8 shot revolvers, this will probably mean the death of Revolver Division. Here you will be able to compete fairly evenly and shoot minor to boot - just like ICORE!

[Vince Pinto]

Mover,

Your argument is about another subject entirely, namely course designs requiring more than 6 rounds from a single position or view, where revolvers must reload, but where pistols do not. In Revolver Standard Division, the standing reloads apply equally to 6 and 8 round revolvers.

And Production has always, from the very outset, allowed 8 round revolvers to shoot to capacity - it's nothing new.

[Detlef]

to those of us who are i) lazy and ii) only occasional revolver shooters, what are the changes wrt. the current rules? Will these changes make any (!) equipment Rev Std Div non-compliant that is now compliant? Almost any (!) such change would be bad news...

--Detlef

[Vince Pinto]

Detlef,

The January 2004 Edition Rulebook has no changes to the Revolver Standard Division rules which are currently in effect. There has been one additional line added though, and that's Point 20 (which I mentioned earlier in this thread) which prohibts the use of "semi-automatic" revolvers in RS division.

[Flexmoney]

Vince,

Could I use the semi-auto Revolver in Production??? Is it on the list???

(tee-hee )

[Vince Pinto]

Flex,

Sure you can, but it's not on the list because nobody we know of actually owns or plans to buy one - apart from the initial list (probably 80% of it), all subsequent additions (and 2 deleltions) arose from requests.

You see, we're really nice people and we like to keep you happy

[Flexmoney]

LOL...are you saying I can shoot a gun that isn't on the list?!?!

[AFDavis11]

I didn't see mention of being able to modify the cylinder for chamfering of the charge holes. Should we add that?, last I checked I didn't see it in the rules but I think it would help if it was. And if it is in the rules already and I missed it, I'd like to say I like that it is allowed. Atleast that is my impression (since I did it :-)

[Vince Pinto]

Flex,

Stop yanking my chain - my neck's starting to hurt. The answer is Yes .......... and No.

Yes, it seems the "semi-auto" revolvers with a 5" or shorter barrel qualify for PD but, No, you can't actually shoot one in PD unless it's on the list and, No, I'm not going to add it unless somebody actually wants to shoot one and they request it be added and, Yes, if you try to pull a fast one I'll send Shooter Grrl and SiG Lady around to see you with the official IPSC rubber glove

BWA-HA-HA

AFD,

Yes, you can already modify the cylinder to accept Moon Clips.

[Flexmoney]

LOL...shucks...I'll quit...for now

I think I am drifting this thread anyway.

AFD,

It looks like Vince covered the "modifications for moon clips" in his first post? But, take a look. If something needs added or deleted...now is the time to bring it up.