Is my gun IDPA legal?

[Pro2AInPA]

It's a Glock 35 slide on a Glock 17 frame. The frame has a Dawson Precision magwell. I'll also be using a Lone Wolf barrel and Dawson Precision sights.

Thanks!

[rino451]

It's a Glock 35 slide on a Glock 17 frame. The frame has a Dawson Precision magwell. I'll also be using a Lone Wolf barrel and Dawson Precision sights.

Thanks!

IDPA Rulebook

Edited January 9, 2010 by rino451

[Pro2AInPA]

It's a Glock 35 slide on a Glock 17 frame. The frame has a Dawson Precision magwell. I'll also be using a Lone Wolf barrel and Dawson Precision sights.

Thanks!

IDPA Rulebook

I read it. Didn't really see anything that specifically addresses my question, though. I see that the magwell would put me in ESP but what about the 35 slide on the 17 frame? It's the exact same frame except the ejector which is changed to the .40 S&W ejector anyway, so I can't see why it would matter.

Edited January 9, 2010 by Pro2AInPA

[Steve Koski]

IDPA does not allow caliber conversions. Technically putting a .40 top end on a frame that was originally sold as a 9mm gun is not allowed. Personally, I don't have a problem with it as they are identical parts. So from here forward I'm going to just assume that the frame came with the slide.

LWD barrel is fine as long is it is in .40.

Magwell may or may not be OK. Is it weighted? Is it brass? Does the completed gun fit in the IDPA box?

Sights are fine.

[Pro2AInPA]

IDPA does not allow caliber conversions. Technically putting a .40 top end on a frame that was originally sold as a 9mm gun is not allowed. Personally, I don't have a problem with it as they are identical parts. So from here forward I'm going to just assume that the frame came with the slide.

LWD barrel is fine as long is it is in .40.

Magwell may or may not be OK. Is it weighted? Is it brass? Does the completed gun fit in the IDPA box?

Sights are fine.

The magwell is aluminum. I'll have to weigh the gun and build the box to check it. I have a G19 but I like the longer gun more.

[Duane Thomas]

No, it's not legal to put a .40 barrel and slide on a 9mm frame. Yes, I know it's the exact same part. Hey, I don't make the news, I just report it.

[Pro2AInPA]

No, it's not legal to put a .40 barrel and slide on a 9mm frame. Yes, I know it's the exact same part. Hey, I don't make the news, I just report it.

Damn. G19 it is. I really don't like that gun though. Maybe I should sell it for a 34.

[lugnut]

IDPA does not allow caliber conversions. Technically putting a .40 top end on a frame that was originally sold as a 9mm gun is not allowed. Personally, I don't have a problem with it as they are identical parts. So from here forward I'm going to just assume that the frame came with the slide.

+1 Most SOs won't see the serial numbers and there is NO WAY to tell it's a different lower! If you want to be extra cautious ask the MD. I'd make a bet that if you told a MD that you bought a replacement lower they would care less. There is NO competitive advantage so who should care!

[steel1212]

IDPA does not allow caliber conversions. Technically putting a .40 top end on a frame that was originally sold as a 9mm gun is not allowed. Personally, I don't have a problem with it as they are identical parts. So from here forward I'm going to just assume that the frame came with the slide.

+1 Most SOs won't see the serial numbers and there is NO WAY to tell it's a different lower! If you want to be extra cautious ask the MD. I'd make a bet that if you told a MD that you bought a replacement lower they would care less. There is NO competitive advantage so who should care!

I don't know the rule book enough to back me up but if it is illegal the one person that knows shouldn't be doing it even if there is no competitive advantage or not. I don't see anything wrong with it either but if the book says no....well then no. Again, I don't know the book enough to use it to back me up though.

[Round_Gun_Shooter]

IDPA does not allow caliber conversions. Technically putting a .40 top end on a frame that was originally sold as a 9mm gun is not allowed. Personally, I don't have a problem with it as they are identical parts. So from here forward I'm going to just assume that the frame came with the slide.

+1 Most SOs won't see the serial numbers and there is NO WAY to tell it's a different lower! If you want to be extra cautious ask the MD. I'd make a bet that if you told a MD that you bought a replacement lower they would care less. There is NO competitive advantage so who should care!

I don't know the rule book enough to back me up but if it is illegal the one person that knows shouldn't be doing it even if there is no competitive advantage or not. I don't see anything wrong with it either but if the book says no....well then no. Again, I don't know the book enough to use it to back me up though.

+1 well said

[lugnut]

Guys- I just want to say I'm someone that always follows the rules! I don't have the desire to go to a sanctioned match and get sent home. I know Glocks pretty well and let's just say I have a few G35s, G34, and G17s each with the same S/N on the lower/upper. ALL have the same exact lowers- less the ejector. I mean exactly the same. So if this is not allowed great- but it's insane and the rule is virtually unenforceable anyway.

I also believe Glock occasionally sells complete guns with mixed uppers/lowers- I think as refurbs or something. They have a special letter as a prefic I believe- and the upper/lowers don't always match. Would these also be illegal?? Hmmm.

Quite frankly- these are the kind of ridiculous rules that turn away shooters.... and most SOs/MDs know that.

Edited January 9, 2010 by lugnut

[lugnut]

No, it's not legal to put a .40 barrel and slide on a 9mm frame. Yes, I know it's the exact same part. Hey, I don't make the news, I just report it.

What if the 9mm frame and the 40 frame are the same? I think you are reading too deep into the rules... at least the way I interpret them.

[lugnut]

No, it's not legal to put a .40 barrel and slide on a 9mm frame. Yes, I know it's the exact same part. Hey, I don't make the news, I just report it.

What if the 9mm frame and the 40 frame are the same? I think you are reading too deep into the rules... at least the way I interpret them.

Now if you use a 9mm conversion barrel in .40 upper- I can see THAT being an issue...

Edited January 9, 2010 by lugnut

[jmorris]

I have shot my SV set up in both 9mm and 45 at many different sanctioned matches (including nationals more than once) without ever having anyone say a thing. So, I don’t see the problem unless you’re going for SSP.

[kaiserb]

IDPA does not allow caliber conversions. Technically putting a .40 top end on a frame that was originally sold as a 9mm gun is not allowed. Personally, I don't have a problem with it as they are identical parts. So from here forward I'm going to just assume that the frame came with the slide.

+1 Most SOs won't see the serial numbers and there is NO WAY to tell it's a different lower! If you want to be extra cautious ask the MD. I'd make a bet that if you told a MD that you bought a replacement lower they would care less. There is NO competitive advantage so who should care!

I don't know the rule book enough to back me up but if it is illegal the one person that knows shouldn't be doing it even if there is no competitive advantage or not. I don't see anything wrong with it either but if the book says no....well then no. Again, I don't know the book enough to use it to back me up though.

+1 in life we all have to follow certain rules at specific times. I know IDPA has some whacky rules but they are the rules.

[Trail3]

For the local club match I really don't see a real problem shooting the conversion. For sactioned matches, then yes keep it legal.

Our club matches have been having 80-100 shooters per month, 15-18 shooters per squad. We can't be checking everyones guns.

I have a 35 that I have a 9mm barrel and I'm going to shoot it at the next club match. I also have a 357 Sig barrel for it, there is no competitive advantage with that one.

Most of us are shooting for fun, but when we are going for it we run by the book.

[jmorris]

IDPA does not allow caliber conversions.

What page is that on?

[twodownzero]

I don't see anything in the rule book making his gun illegal for ESP.

SSP requires:

A barrel of another caliber that is not offered in the original

factory model.

I don't see any such rule for ESP.

I'd say it may be legal for ESP.

[steel1212]

No, it's not legal to put a .40 barrel and slide on a 9mm frame. Yes, I know it's the exact same part. Hey, I don't make the news, I just report it.

What if the 9mm frame and the 40 frame are the same? I think you are reading too deep into the rules... at least the way I interpret them.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying you would do it at all plus like I said I don't know the rules enough to make a solid judgement. Plus the frames wont' be the same the serial numbers will be different and yes I know NO SO is going to check and verify you have the correct serial numbers.

Edited January 9, 2010 by steel1212

[Pro2AInPA]

No, it's not legal to put a .40 barrel and slide on a 9mm frame. Yes, I know it's the exact same part. Hey, I don't make the news, I just report it.

What if the 9mm frame and the 40 frame are the same? I think you are reading too deep into the rules... at least the way I interpret them.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying you would do it at all plus like I said I don't know the rules enough to make a solid judgement. Plus the frames wont' be the same the serial numbers will be different and yes I know NO SO is going to check and verify you have the correct serial numbers.

Even if they would, someone could be shooting let's say a G34 slide on a G17 frame but the serial numbers wouldn't match. That wouldn't be a different caliber.

Edited January 9, 2010 by Pro2AInPA

[Pro2AInPA]

I don't see anything in the rule book making his gun illegal for ESP.

SSP requires:

A barrel of another caliber that is not offered in the original

factory model.

I don't see any such rule for ESP.

I'd say it may be legal for ESP.

I'd be shooting ESP anyway because I'm not taking my magwell off to shoot IDPA.

[twodownzero]

I don't see anything in the rule book making his gun illegal for ESP.

SSP requires:

A barrel of another caliber that is not offered in the original

factory model.

I don't see any such rule for ESP.

I'd say it may be legal for ESP.

I'd be shooting ESP anyway because I'm not taking my magwell off to shoot IDPA.

I figured as such.

I don't shoot IPDA (anymore), so I don't know the rules as well as I should, but I can't find any rule prohibiting your gun.

[Jim Watson]

The rules for each Division have a heading:

"PERMITTED Modifications (Inclusive list):"

Earlier editions of the rules defined "inclusive" to mean "If it is not on this list it cannot be used in Defensive Pistol competition." I don't know why they dropped that line, but they did not drop the word "inclusive" and doubt HQ would interpret it any differently now. Change of slide is not on the permitted list, therefore it is not permitted. If you don't believe me, call Robert Ray. If you don't like his call, so solly.

[twodownzero]

The rules for each Division have a heading:

"PERMITTED Modifications (Inclusive list):"

Earlier editions of the rules defined "inclusive" to mean "If it is not on this list it cannot be used in Defensive Pistol competition." I don't know why they dropped that line, but they did not drop the word "inclusive" and doubt HQ would interpret it any differently now. Change of slide is not on the permitted list, therefore it is not permitted. If you don't believe me, call Robert Ray. If you don't like his call, so solly.

That seems rather foolish of an interpretation to me.

There is no rule that requires that you buy a firearm WITH a slide, and I'm sure many Caspians, STIs, SVs, and other such pistols with bushing barrels are used in ESP.

Built from frames, their slides would not be exclusive to one firearm and nobody would be able to claim that you could not change the slide to another, because no one slide would be expected to be installed on a given pistol frame.

In this case, no one could claim that the slide was "swapped" because the "firearm" was purchased as a frame, with no slide fitted.

If IDPA expected to enforce this rule against someone who swapped a slide on a Glock in ESP, they'd be enforcing a rule in that division that could definitely not be enforced fairly, and doing so in a manner that penalizes someone who chooses to shoot a factory gun over a custom built one...and doing so without any textual basis other than to say "Glocks come with X slide, you have Y slide on your gun, Caspians come with no slide, so that person can use whatever slide they want...

This seems severely problematic, and impractical for a division where a double stack 1911 is legal. Hardly anyone has a factory stock, bushing barrel 5" 2011.

[Brian Gonsalves]

The rules for each Division have a heading:

"PERMITTED Modifications (Inclusive list):"

Earlier editions of the rules defined "inclusive" to mean "If it is not on this list it cannot be used in Defensive Pistol competition." I don't know why they dropped that line, but they did not drop the word "inclusive" and doubt HQ would interpret it any differently now. Change of slide is not on the permitted list, therefore it is not permitted. If you don't believe me, call Robert Ray. If you don't like his call, so solly.

For use in ESP, I disagree.

From rulebook regarding SSP:

Permitted-6. Internal accuracy may be worked to include replacement of barrel with one of factory configuration and original caliber.

Excluded-6. A barrel of another caliber that is not offered in the original factory model.

From rulebook regarding ESP:

Permitted-3. Internal accuracy work (includes: replacement of the barrel with one of factory configuration, the use of Accu-Rails, the use of Briley Bushings).

Excluded-? No mention of barrel or caliber.

Also consider how many ESP guns have been built on Caspian frames. What was the Caspian 1911 original caliber?

Now on the magwell, some of the earlier ICE magwells had a brass insert that went up into the grip. Those are not allowed.

From rulebook regarding all guns:

Non-IDPA legal modifications for all divisions-B. Add-on weights for a competitive advantage (this includes, but is not limited to, weighted magazines, tungsten guide rods, brass magazine wells, weighted grips).