New Open Gun, The Journey......

[Sumtoc]

Have spent a lot of time researching posts and advice here and thought I'd summarize what has happened so far and ask for some input:

New to Open and 1911 style pistols in general. Bought an STI in 38 Super from a forum member, according to Bob Cogan (local to me) it is fresh/tight with very few rounds through it. I chose to replace the standard STI C-More mount with a Quinn II and had the slide slotted for the Quinn slide racker. First round fired caused a FTF. Bob checked it, cut coils off the recoil spring, worked with no problems for another 20-25 rounds. Took it home and the Journey began.....

1) Got about 2k fired cases from another shooter, mixed headstamps, ran them all through a CasePro. Installed Dillon dies in my 650. (HP and LR shooter for about 15 years, tons of rifle ammo loaded, plus 40 cal for my G35 and local IDPA matches)

2) Played with several loads, 115 MG, 124 MG, N340, 3N37, 3N38, have some 4756 but have not tried it yet. Gun has standard 3 port STI comp, seems to shoot the 124s with 3N38 fairly well. I am getting about 1425 fps with 9.0 gr and 1.240 OAL. (I may back this down a bit later, but this is the load I am testing everything else with)

3) However...... it has not been reliable at all. From the start it seemed to have FTE problems, and some FTF issues. The brass lands in different places. I decied to attend a local USPA match, even though I had low confidence in the gun. Pretty miserable day, averaged 3-4 malfuntions per stage, but I managed to learn a bit about the game and the ROs were very patilent. Clearly I had work to do....

4) Barrel seemed to have a slightly rough feed ramp and chamber. I could feel the case mouth dragging on the top of the chamber during initial entry. So I polished those. Also reduced OAL by .005" and increased taper crimp slightly. That seemed to help cut down on some of the FTF, about 30%.

5) I became suspicious of the used brass so orded 2K new Starline cases. Rounds with the fresh brass cycle more reliably, almost totally eliminated the FTF, but still have some (once or twice per 200 rds) that I suspected were mag problems. Also now checking all loaded rounds with the EGW 50rd chamber checker.

6) Had the 4 used mags (2 140s and 2 170s) that came with the gun worked over by Bobby Keigans of Freeedom Gunworks. He recommeded not spending the time and $$ on one of the 170s, tube seemed soft and pretty shot. Bought 2 new STI 140 tubes and added the Dawson SNL basepads and Grams followers to all 5 mags. After tweaking the followers a bit, the mags began to run better.

7) Still had the orignal recoil spring that was cut in the early going. No idea what the lb value was, so orderd ISMI springs in 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11lb. Also got an SDM spring tester for Christmas. The orginal cut spring reads about 7.5 lbs. Dropped in the 11# for that first match and still had FTE problems, cut 2 coils off (one at a time) and it improved but not 100% yet. This 11# cut spring reads about 8.5 lbs on the tester.

8) Turned my attention to the ejection and installed a Brazos pre-tuned long ejector. Much better results, more consistently tosses the brass about 8-10 ft at 3:30 - 4:00 from me. But still have the odd FTE failure. Today I had 2 in 100 rds, one with the case mouth pointing to the rear, the other with the mouth facing forward. Both caught by the slide and were parallel to the ground.

Questions:

- Is the recoil spring too light (measures about 8.5 lbs)? Seems like adding a heavier spring would reduce the rearward speed of the slide and make the FTE worse? (Slide is stock STI, not lightened)

- I have an Aftec extractor but not sure that would help? The cases seem to be extracting reliably, but maybe the extractor is not holding them long enough/strong enough for 100% ejection?

- Other suggestions?

Sorry for the long post and thanks for the help! I am ready to start practicing and stop spending so much time getting this thing running right............

[PONY EXPRESS]

Sounds like you need to put new springs in the AFTEC. FTF'S What type of bullet are you useing? Montana Gold, Remington, Winchester? The MG's need a little more crimp.

If the slide is going, ka-chunk when chambering I think a little more recoil spring is needed.

[Sumtoc]

Sorry if I wasn't clear, although I have the Aftec I have not installed it yet. The gun currently has the stock STI extractor that came on the gun.

Using 124 Gr HP MG. I think I have the crimp right ATM, its the FTE that seems most common now......

[BSeevers]

Extractors wear out and I would have a new one fitted by someone who knows what they are doing.

Ammo is the culprit in 90% of new open gun buyers problems IF it was working before you got it.

[G-ManBart]

You were saying "FTE" but that can be either failure to extract or failure to eject. I'm guessing from the last question you're saying it's not ejecting properly right? An extractor that hold the case more securely can help with ejection problems.

The two failures you had today sound like the extractor came off the case too soon (not enough tension).

The 11lb spring that you cut may still be too heavy....especially with a heavier slide. Very few Open guns out there are running anything heavier than 10lb springs (packing markings, not test readings) from what I've seen. They all take a set after they're used a little bit, so weighing them on a tester takes time to have a reference point (meaning a spring that you know works, then check it). Most Open guns will run with a 9lb spring (package markings) in them. It may not be ideal (dot tracking) for every gun, but they'll normally work at that weight. Put a standard, uncut 9lb ISMI in the gun and check you don't get coil bind (the spring stacking solid prior to the slide going all the way to the rear. Don't clip any coils if it's not binding. If it won't extract or eject properly, try an 8lb spring in the same fashion. You shouldn't have to go below that. Lighter springs help with extracting and ejecting, but the pose feeding problems when they get too light (like 7lbs or less).

Install the AFTEC per the instructions (it's easy), check that it doesn't hit the barrel when the slide is in battery. Start with both springs in it. Some guns run better with only one, but all of mine have been perfect with both.

I'd leave the ammo the same so at least you can eliminate that variable....sounds like the 3N38 load is pretty close to where it needs to be (176PF isn't too high at all) and I wouldn't drop it any lower than 172-173. You will find that new cases give you a higher velocity than even once-fired, so factor that into your load choice. R,

[wide45]

Change one thing at a time. Start with the recoil spring, as G-ManBart gave good advice there.

[lvipscshooter]

You were saying "FTE" but that can be either failure to extract or failure to eject. I'm guessing from the last question you're saying it's not ejecting properly right? An extractor that hold the case more securely can help with ejection problems.

The two failures you had today sound like the extractor came off the case too soon (not enough tension).

The 11lb spring that you cut may still be too heavy....especially with a heavier slide. Very few Open guns out there are running anything heavier than 10lb springs (packing markings, not test readings) from what I've seen. They all take a set after they're used a little bit, so weighing them on a tester takes time to have a reference point (meaning a spring that you know works, then check it). Most Open guns will run with a 9lb spring (package markings) in them. It may not be ideal (dot tracking) for every gun, but they'll normally work at that weight. Put a standard, uncut 9lb ISMI in the gun and check you don't get coil bind (the spring stacking solid prior to the slide going all the way to the rear. Don't clip any coils if it's not binding. If it won't extract or eject properly, try an 8lb spring in the same fashion. You shouldn't have to go below that. Lighter springs help with extracting and ejecting, but the pose feeding problems when they get too light (like 7lbs or less).

Install the AFTEC per the instructions (it's easy), check that it doesn't hit the barrel when the slide is in battery. Start with both springs in it. Some guns run better with only one, but all of mine have been perfect with both.

I'd leave the ammo the same so at least you can eliminate that variable....sounds like the 3N38 load is pretty close to where it needs to be (176PF isn't too high at all) and I wouldn't drop it any lower than 172-173. You will find that new cases give you a higher velocity than even once-fired, so factor that into your load choice. R,

I was having similar issues with my STI 38 Super open gun. My issues were regular failure to eject, and I have an Aftec extractor in the gun. My local "gun Dr." was finally able to get the extractor tuned with enough tension on the cases. He also noted that my installed recoil spring @ 11lbs, was way to heavy and was causing the gun to "short stroke" and not get the case to the ejector. I changed to a 9lb spring and took it to the range yesterday. Between then and this afternoon, the gun has had 300 flawless rounds through it so far. I am using MG 124gr JHP on top of 8.6 grains of IMR 4756, with an OAL of 1.260, and velocity @ 1420fps = 176 power factor

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Stage one is the mount screws hitting the slide? If the feed ramp is rough polish it with 600 paper on a dowel in the direction the round travels. Next fill your mag up and hand cycle it looking at how the rounds come up and also out. I use dummy rounds for that. This will tell you alot Check the extractor tension. Check if the grip is tight with no cracks. If all of this is good and you are still having problems send it to Benny Hill at Triangle, he has fixed lots of these. Hope this helps aand let us know what you find. Thanks, Eric

[caspian guy]

Also if you have a shock buff in, remove it.

[Sumtoc]

Thanks guys. I don't believe the gun was really working 100% for the original owner. I got the impression that he ran 200-300 rounds through it, put it back in the safe and went back to Limited. So this is really like a new gun with little or no tuning done (yet).

BSeevers, I too went to the ammo first and the new brass resulted in the biggest single improvement, although the new Brazos ejector really helped a lot too.

GMan, thanks for confirming what I suspected might be happening with the extractor. I removed it last week and cleaned/inspected it. It looked odd to me and that is why I ordered the Aftec. I will install it when I get back home (traveling the next few days). Sorry about the FTE confusion, I meant failure to eject as you assumed. I have never had a fired case left in the chamber.

GMan, LV, its good to hear that the spring weight in it might be close as is. I will change the extractor first, test fire a couple of hundred then move on to the 9 lb if needed. (Although I kinda like the way it is returning to point of aim now, so hope it is OK)

Glad to hear that my tester is not wacked out. I was surprised how much lower the readings were compared to the package value. I will check for binding.

AC6, I checked the scope mounting screws for length early on. Used the same ones that were used for the STI std mount and they are nice and flush with the inside of the dust cover. Already did the polishing and have been hand cycling with dummy rounds like crazy. That is how I discovered that some case mouths were hanging up as they first entered the chamber. I know that I could send this off and have an expert smith straighten it out but I'd like to be self sufficient with the basic problems so I can recognize and address them in the future. Not out of patience yet...... (BTW, is the air cooled 6 attached to the rear end of a German 2 door?)

C Guy, already removed the shok buff before cutting coils off the 11 lb spring. So not a factor now.

Great to have so much input so quickly. I am learning a lot and appreicate all the help guys!

[HI5-O]

When I got my first open 2011 gun I had many failures to feed and extract and eject.

Went crazy and changed recoil springs, ejectors, extractors and ammo, then what fixed it was new (non-10rd) mags.

Keep at it as once all is working, you are going to love shooting in open

[openmike]

We have all done this dance at one time with our OpenGuns. I won the dance contest when I finally got the right shoes:

Switched to new Starline SuperComp,(less problems in the mag) round nose or Hollow point projectiles like Zero or Hornady, and

got a load length that worked with my gun during slow dry cycling. Then re-adjusted PF to work the comp. (and make major with room to spare).

I gave up the Aftec and went Brazos tuned ejector and extractor,, and a new oversized firing pin stop plate.

I fit the stop plate to the slide snug, then fit the extractor to the stop plate so it cannot rotate or move forward or backward.

I set the extractor tension with a Wiegand pull gauge and a Lyman digital trigger pull guage. I bend the extractor with a Weigand extractor vise. (All from Brownells)

I set the tension progressively tighter 'till the bullet hangs on the extractor and the gun won't chamber the round completely. I measure the tension with the pull gauge and trigger gauge. I back off the tension 1/2 # at a time until the gun goes into battery on a slow controlled slide forward action. (Then record the amount of pull)

I never touch the tuned end of the ejector, (maybe I adjust the back end to match the back of the slide).

Now springs,,,,,,,,,,

Go for the 17# or 19# Main spring on an open gun, the firing pin stop plate should be beveled on the bottom so the hammer does not slow the slide down as much as a square bottom.

Now Re-coil Springs:

I ran a newly chromed gun on a 7# for the time it took to slick the gun in.

For a tune up, I go,starting with 10,then 9,8,7# or until the gun won't strip the top rounds off the mags consistantly, and go up 1#. It seems that if all is working as it should, 8# seems to be where my gun runs the best.

Bullets go under the extractor and chamber even when the gun is being cycled forward slowly. Upon ejection, the extractor is holding the case tight and the long ejector is contacting the case and while it still has a lot of velocity. This puts more tension on the extractor and when it lets go, it helps power the case out of the gun.

Now, with a Barry or QuinnII you can actually see that the ejection path is very consistant, and a good distance. Over 10 feet!

Personally, I beleive that all this cycling vigor should be controlled by a buff. I use a Comminoli two sided set-up.

Open guns run/cycle to slow because so much engery is lost pulling the comp back. This is why all this stuff has to be perfect

[boz1911]

Might want to try here for some pro answers:

http://www.brazoscustom.com/Home.htm

Personally I think you have an extractor issure. I run nothing but Aftecs and they work perfectly.

Bob has articles for just about any issue you may have.

[Sumtoc]

Update:

- Intstalled the Aftec extractor last week, tested it at the range yesterday and no go. Clearly still too much tension and so I tried it with one soft spring and one standard one with no luck. I even compressed the standard one and tried it with 2 soft springs and it still did not work. This made me suspect that the firing pin stop was not fitted correctly. (I also installed a 9 lb ISMI recoil spring while at the range, checked and it wasn't binding. This seemed to help a little.)

- I re-installed the old extractor and finished my planned practice. Still getting failure to eject every 30 rnds or so, and about 10% of the ejected cases fall only 1-2 ft to my right at 9:00. It is definitely too light so I bent it a little and it seemed to get better but really not 100%. Then I was outta ammo....

- Worked on the Aftec some more today. I took a little bit more off the firing pin stop to be certain that there was enough clearance between the extractor slot and the stop, also worked on the radius of the FPS edges. Extractor still had too much tension. Slow cyclying dummy rounds jammed frequently with all spring combinations

- Then I decided to try only one standard spring and that made a huge difference. No jams in about 50 slow cycles. Have to wait until next weekend to test fire.

So...... Is this normal, and will this set up be reliable? Or does working with only one spring indicate that the FPS needs more fitting? Something eles?

Just seems odd that my STI slide would be so different that it needs a single spring.....

[G-ManBart]

Update:

- Intstalled the Aftec extractor last week, tested it at the range yesterday and no go. Clearly still too much tension and so I tried it with one soft spring and one standard one with no luck. I even compressed the standard one and tried it with 2 soft springs and it still did not work. This made me suspect that the firing pin stop was not fitted correctly. (I also installed a 9 lb ISMI recoil spring while at the range, checked and it wasn't binding. This seemed to help a little.)

- I re-installed the old extractor and finished my planned practice. Still getting failure to eject every 30 rnds or so, and about 10% of the ejected cases fall only 1-2 ft to my right at 9:00. It is definitely too light so I bent it a little and it seemed to get better but really not 100%. Then I was outta ammo....

- Worked on the Aftec some more today. I took a little bit more off the firing pin stop to be certain that there was enough clearance between the extractor slot and the stop, also worked on the radius of the FPS edges. Extractor still had too much tension. Slow cyclying dummy rounds jammed frequently with all spring combinations

- Then I decided to try only one standard spring and that made a huge difference. No jams in about 50 slow cycles. Have to wait until next weekend to test fire.

So...... Is this normal, and will this set up be reliable? Or does working with only one spring indicate that the FPS needs more fitting? Something eles?

Just seems odd that my STI slide would be so different that it needs a single spring.....

I've heard of more than a couple folks who've had to use just one spring in their AFTEC, so if it runs, I wouldn't be too concerned about it.

[CocoBolo]

G-man - I have one gun that has only one spring on the aftec. It runs 100% all the time. When the extractor tube starts to get plugged up you notice that at make ready when the slide does not close you have to bump it. Clean out the tube oil it and it is good as new again. It has never failed to extract but when it gets too dirty the slide does not close.