is this a legal uspsa shooting position

[juan]

Iam the father of the orinal poster

This position started many years ago.

My son started shooting competivly at the age of ten. he is now 15

It started for support. beign that young holding the gun up with one and having any kind of stability was hard.

Fast forward to today.He is changing his position but some times he goes to the posted position.

The reason for the post was probably my lazyness. if it was legal why change it now. He is verry fast in getting into that position. many years and many dry fires.

[Nik Habicht]

if it was legal why change it now.

That's a really big if.....

We've been operating under the current language since 2004, and the language in the red (2001) rulebook isn't significantly different either.....

Nothing's changed under the rules --- which doesn't mean that this was ever legal.....

[juan]

sorry never meant to say it was ever legal.

just saying if it is legal

[juan]

before I am misunderstood.

I understand the pro and con of this position.

If its legal fine we got bigger fish to fry

If its not legal, one procedural per shot this becomes a much bigger fish.

Just trying to prioritize are training.

[Flexmoney]

I think that our opening poster might have been shooting weak hand.

It’s strong in the picture but the principles apply either way.

The picture is the right hand. We all assume that is the strong hand.

The point being, it could be a case of getting the opposite (dominant) eye behind the sights.

Thus...supporting the head as much as anything...

And, he is looking to support his head, not his shooting arm.

I think then he should put his chin directly on his strong shoulder. No rules against that.

I suggested people actually try that. Do it now. It provides the same "support" that some seems so worried about.

But looking at the picture his strong arm is being supported by his weak one, no ifs, ands, or buts.

I think there are huge butts!

How is he supporting his arm? He isn't holding it up like a suspension wire holds the deck of a bridge. He isn't bracing the arm up from below. He isn't bracing one end to make the other more stable (like standing on one end of a teeter-totter).

At best, he is tensioning proverbial "guy wires". And, we could say that about a lot of things.

[badchad]

How is he supporting his arm? He isn't holding it up like a suspension wire holds the deck of a bridge. He isn't bracing the arm up from below. He isn't bracing one end to make the other more stable (like standing on one end of a teeter-totter).

I don’t think I can explain it any better than I already have, and I think I have explained it fairly well both in layman and more anatomical terms. I honestly think those of you who aren’t getting it, just aren’t trying to.

But, if you don’t want to take my word for it. How about the kids dad?

Iam the father of the orinal poster

This position started many years ago.

My son started shooting competivly at the age of ten. he is now 15

It started for support. beign that young holding the gun up with one and having any kind of stability was hard.

Case closed.

[Flexmoney]

I don’t think I can explain it any better than I already have, and I think I have explained it fairly well both in layman and more anatomical terms. I honestly think those of you who aren’t getting it, just aren’t trying to.

How about...we just don't agree with you?

I've explained it too. Did you lay your head against your shoulder? Support, yes or no?

[badchad]

How about...we just don't agree with you?

That’s absolutely fine, but I think your sin here is pride, you (and at least one other guy) just won’t admit you were wrong. The kid’s father’s testimony obviously isn’t enough. Personally I don’t think you or mhs are going to change your minds even if the angel Gabriel appears and tell you the kid is supporting his shooting arm with his other arm.

I've explained it to. Did you lay your head against your shoulder? Support, yes or no?

Sure I did. It’s obviously support to the shoulder, but with the decreased surface area and less muscle potentially being involved the support is less. Support with the head however is not a rule violation. Support with the non-shooting hand is.

So far, by my count, a few are undecided, 14 responders are going to issue procedurals, 3 are leaning in that direction and only 8 will let it pass. So if the kid feels lucky, let him do it.

Honestly speaking I don't think you should keep asking me questions as there is little new I can say that stays within the rules of the forum.

[Flexmoney]

If you don't have anything new to add...you can quit posting. But, please don't get upset with people because they don't agree with your position.

As I said before (on one of these threads), it is obvious that we are getting a variety of opinion from people with good intentions. The reason that is so is because we have a situation...seldom seen before...that doesn't match up to the wording we have in the rule book.

[mactiger]

I think it matches well enough to issue procedurals for doing it--it's not one of the three basic things that the rule says you can do with your off hand, and that's simple enough for me.

Troy

[Nik Habicht]

I think it matches well enough to issue procedurals for doing it--it's not one of the three basic things that the rule says you can do with your off hand, and that's simple enough for me.

Troy

Troy,

is it your position that anything other than "arm hanging relaxed at side" then deserves procedurals? That's what you seem to be implying --- and that's not how we've been calling it.....

[mactiger]

I think it matches well enough to issue procedurals for doing it--it's not one of the three basic things that the rule says you can do with your off hand, and that's simple enough for me.

Troy

Troy,

is it your position that anything other than "arm hanging relaxed at side" then deserves procedurals? That's what you seem to be implying --- and that's not how we've been calling it.....

Nah, I just got tired of all the anatomical argument over a simple thing like touching your shooting arm with your supposedly disabled arm/hand. You can put that hand anywhere but touching your shoulder or arm--which is the way we've been calling it all along. It is my position that this position is not legal.

I probably shouldn't post late at night.

Troy

[LPatterson]

How about...we just don't agree with you?

That’s absolutely fine, but I think your sin here is pride, you (and at least one other guy) just won’t admit you were wrong. The kid’s father’s testimony obviously isn’t enough. Personally I don’t think you or mhs are going to change your minds even if the angel Gabriel appears and tell you the kid is supporting his shooting arm with his other arm.

I've explained it to. Did you lay your head against your shoulder? Support, yes or no?

Sure I did. It’s obviously support to the shoulder, but with the decreased surface area and less muscle potentially being involved the support is less. Support with the head however is not a rule violation. Support with the non-shooting hand is.

So far, by my count, a few are undecided, 14 responders are going to issue procedurals, 3 are leaning in that direction and only 8 will let it pass. So if the kid feels lucky, let him do it.

Honestly speaking I don't think you should keep asking me questions as there is little new I can say that stays within the rules of the forum.

Let me join those who don't agree we you but so far haven't posted because they don't see anyway to change your mind. I really hate the condescension about the laymans terms versus super educated anatomical terms and I don't care if you might even be a doctor. As for laying the head on the shoulder, the only way I can touch my head with my shoulder is if I lift my arm over my head and lay my forearm on top of my head. You have your idea of what arm is and it includes the bones above the shoulder joint. My opinion ios that the arm stops at the shoulder joint and is the bony structure from arm pit to finger tips. When football players stiff arm they aren't hitting the opposing player with their shoulder.

[mhs]

How is he supporting his arm? He isn't holding it up like a suspension wire holds the deck of a bridge. He isn't bracing the arm up from below. He isn't bracing one end to make the other more stable (like standing on one end of a teeter-totter).

I don’t think I can explain it any better than I already have, and I think I have explained it fairly well both in layman and more anatomical terms. I honestly think those of you who aren’t getting it, just aren’t trying to.

But, if you don’t want to take my word for it. How about the kids dad?

Iam the father of the orinal poster

This position started many years ago.

My son started shooting competivly at the age of ten. he is now 15

It started for support. beign that young holding the gun up with one and having any kind of stability was hard.

Case closed.

Actually, from what you quote, the "stability" is not specifically in reference to anything, so it could mean the head just as easily as the arm. The OP said it was to rest and steady his head:

The other question is why do you feel shooting like that gives you an advantage?

i think it gives me an advantage to rest and steady my head

I don't see any reason to assume the OP is lying.

[Nik Habicht]

I think it matches well enough to issue procedurals for doing it--it's not one of the three basic things that the rule says you can do with your off hand, and that's simple enough for me.

Troy

Troy,

is it your position that anything other than "arm hanging relaxed at side" then deserves procedurals? That's what you seem to be implying --- and that's not how we've been calling it.....

Nah, I just got tired of all the anatomical argument over a simple thing like touching your shooting arm with your supposedly disabled arm/hand. You can put that hand anywhere but touching your shoulder or arm--which is the way we've been calling it all along. It is my position that this position is not legal.

I probably shouldn't post late at night.

Troy

I was pretty sure that you weren't saying what could be read into your earlier statement --- but figured it should be clarified for the folks who don't know you......

Since the rules don't mention shoulder --- I'd probably call it differently if the shooter wasn't touching the head of the humerus......

[pskys2]

Didn't take time to read all the posts so this may already be covered.

Ball your fist and drop it down to the front of your shoulder socket, then you can tuck your chin into your fist and the fist into the socket.

This will put your fist into more muscle and helps lock everything into place.

Really don't know if it helps much either way, practice will do more regardless of manipulations.

The biggest thing is to not let the free hand hang in space, the movement can upset the sight picture.

As for either being a penalty, I'd think not. As long as you don't touch the hand/arm forward of the shoulder socket.

[Steve J]

Didn't take time to read all the posts so this may already be covered.

Ball your fist and drop it down to the front of your shoulder socket, then you can tuck your chin into your fist and the fist into the socket.

This will put your fist into more muscle and helps lock everything into place.

Really don't know if it helps much either way, practice will do more regardless of manipulations.

The biggest thing is to not let the free hand hang in space, the movement can upset the sight picture.

As for either being a penalty, I'd think not. As long as you don't touch the hand/arm forward of the shoulder socket.

Jeez. The sentence I highlighted alone proves you're using your off hand to support the shooting arm. Illegal plain and simple.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Steve J

[Jake Di Vita]

In theory it stabilizes your arm...in reality - it really doesn't.

If the reason your are doing it is to help stabilize your arm, then you are by definition, defying the rules - regardless of whether it works or not. With that said, what other possible reason would there be for this technique?

Personally I'd prefer all my competition doing this, but that doesn't make it legal.

[vluc]

Not knowing all of the posters to this thread, are any of them shooters at the clubs the OP would be shooting at? Surely somebody from his local area posts on here.

If there are any, and if they are RO's, it would be nice to hear their opinions. The young man may never shoot anything other than local matches, and should know in advance what his local clubs will call this as. OH and PA may call procedurals on it, CA may not.

If we find a difference exists, then we let NROI address it.

[bill d]

In theory it stabilizes your arm...in reality - it really doesn't.

If the reason your are doing it is to help stabilize your arm, then you are by definition, defying the rules - regardless of whether it works or not. With that said, what other possible reason would there be for this technique?

Personally I'd prefer all my competition doing this, but that doesn't make it legal.

I agree and don't know how the topic lasted this long. Troy gave you his opinion too. You can argue all you want at a "monthly match" and some people doing the RO'ing will give you the opinions stated here. Do it at a Area match or at the Nationals and your going to get a procedural.

Here's a thought.....go to IPSC.org and start a thread about this and see what the replies are. IPSC has more rules (not that it's any better) and follow's them to a "T". It's my opinion that they will quickly state that the position is illegal.

[tightloop]

Big words...better be willing to put the work in with them.

the thing with sports is that new players always step in, and you never know what will come of the new player you just know the old one will get replaced after a while,

remember that the big words are usally the most truthful

Yep...they been trying to beat TGO at the Single Stack match each yr since they started it...like 15 yrs..

don't let your mouth write a check your shooting performance can't cash...

[GentlemanJim]

Just out of curiosity....What class does the young man shoot in?

Jim

[vluc]

Just out of curiosity....What class does the young man shoot in?

Jim

Well, judging from the pic I think we can rule out Open and Revolver Divisions. So we are down to SS, Prod, L-10 or Ltd. If recoil and managing the gun are issues, then winging away with a .40 or .45 (assuming he is shooting major) strong handed for an entire match ought to whack the crap out of one.

If shooting minor and 9mm in Prod or SS, recoil is not an issue and one hand is a disadvantage (imho). Since he states he does it to steady his head, well, maybe Jake can give him some exercises to strengthen his neck so he does not have to shoot that way.

Would be interesting to see a vid of him shooting a cof.

[pskys2]

Didn't take time to read all the posts so this may already be covered.

Ball your fist and drop it down to the front of your shoulder socket, then you can tuck your chin into your fist and the fist into the socket.

This will put your fist into more muscle and helps lock everything into place.

Really don't know if it helps much either way, practice will do more regardless of manipulations.

The biggest thing is to not let the free hand hang in space, the movement can upset the sight picture.

As for either being a penalty, I'd think not. As long as you don't touch the hand/arm forward of the shoulder socket.

Jeez. The sentence I highlighted alone proves you're using your off hand to support the shooting arm. Illegal plain and simple.

When I said "in front of the shoulder socket", I meant inside the socket towards the torso. You should only be pressing on the chest muscles not the actual socket.

As Jake posted I don't think it actually helps anything, that was just the theory (and it's been used at National/World Shoot matches by far better competitors than I with no penalty problems). If you start creeping forward you will incur penalties.

The biggest advantage is to just keep the free hand from adding a pendulum effect to your shooting arm. Some even tuck their hands into their pockets.

The rules prohibit supporting the shooting hand/arm directly. Anything behind the shoulder socket is by definition the shoulder, not the arm.

[Jake Di Vita]

The intent is still trying to stabilize the arm....Illegal.

What happens if a shooter tries to intentionally run into an RO during a CoF for a reshoot? Whether he succeeds or not, it's unsportsmanlike conduct right?