Lake City 30-06 Match M-72

[G-ManBart]

Hey all,

I found a large stash of Lake City 1968 (understand they were made in 67) Match 30-06 M-72 ammo today. They want $400 for 400 rounds (one ammo can full) or $800 for 800 rounds (a case). They probably had 20+ cases of this on hand.

What do you think of the price, and how would you compare it with the Hornady M-1 ammo that the CMP sells for $259 for 200?

Over Thanksgiving my father dropped off the 1903A3 he built for me. He just happened to have all the correct vintage parts to build a matching gun (1943) with the correct cartouches on the stock, serial number range that matches the barrel and the barrel is one he bought new in the wrapper back in the 60s. He built it up, headspaced it perfectly and then won a local match with it using cast bullets....it's never even seen a jacketed bullet yet! In a similar fashion he had all the parts (collected over the years similar to the 03A3) to build me a 1943-44 vintage correct M-1. I don't have that yet, but will on his next trip here, or my next trip there. I've got some decent ammo (some of the good Greek stuff in a sealed tin), but not enough, so I'm looking to get some that will work well in either gun (thinking of the JCG matches or similar). I'm not planning on reloading 30-06 in quantity now, so I need an alternative.

Any thoughts?

[GeneralChang]

Pricey, but unlikely you'll find a better deal on match ammo. A Google search yielded a range of $33-$40+ dollars for Sierra Gold Medal in 30-06. Is it sealed? How was it stored?

[Boats]

Let the collectors have it and load your own 30-1906 Match ammo. It's much cheaper and just as good. That old stuff is often talked about but no magic performance wise. Loading the bullets are 35 cents give the primer a nickle and 10 cents worth of powder at most. Half the price of 40 year old ammo.

I have a Remington 03, early receiver all milled, that I built from parts years ago when they were cheap. Type C stock unfired 4 grove SA barrel and Redfields front and rear. It will shoot with any modern match rifle out there using hand loads and Sierra 168 gr Match Kings. Often times I will compare it's performance with my modern 7mm08 or before that barrel .308 on a 700 action and the 03 is just about 1/4 Moa behind in on target performance. Not enough to make any difference in actual matches.

Key to 03's is bed them properly.

Boats

Edited December 21, 2009 by Boats

[G-ManBart]

Pricey, but unlikely you'll find a better deal on match ammo. A Google search yielded a range of $33-$40+ dollars for Sierra Gold Medal in 30-06. Is it sealed? How was it stored?

Yeah, the Hornady stuff was the least expensive decent ammo I found priced anywhere. It's in the original 50cal sealed ammo cans inside wooden crates. They have one can open so you can look at the packaging and ammo itself....all spotless.

[G-ManBart]

Let the collectors have it and load your own 30-1906 Match ammo. It's much cheaper and just as good. That old stuff is often talked about but no magic performance wise. Loading the bullets are 35 cents give the primer a nickle and 10 cents worth of powder at most. Half the price of 40 year old ammo.

That's just it....I don't really want to spend the time to load 30-06 right now. I'm not going to shoot either rifle that much, but I like to have a decent supply of ammo for any gun I have and I may just want to shoot a few of the John C. Garand matches this year, or some of the "fun" military rifle matches that are taking place.

The other thing is I don't have many 30-06 cases so I'd have to buy those and something like 500 Lapua cases would run me $400 to start with and even less expensive brass like Win would be $150-175 (yes, I know that decreases with each use). R,

[1chota]

Hey all,

I found a large stash of Lake City 1968 (understand they were made in 67) Match 30-06 M-72 ammo today. They want $400 for 400 rounds (one ammo can full) or $800 for 800 rounds (a case). They probably had 20+ cases of this on hand.

What do you think of the price, and how would you compare it with the Hornady M-1 ammo that the CMP sells for $259 for 200?

Over Thanksgiving my father dropped off the 1903A3 he built for me. He just happened to have all the correct vintage parts to build a matching gun (1943) with the correct cartouches on the stock, serial number range that matches the barrel and the barrel is one he bought new in the wrapper back in the 60s. He built it up, headspaced it perfectly and then won a local match with it using cast bullets....it's never even seen a jacketed bullet yet! In a similar fashion he had all the parts (collected over the years similar to the 03A3) to build me a 1943-44 vintage correct M-1. I don't have that yet, but will on his next trip here, or my next trip there. I've got some decent ammo (some of the good Greek stuff in a sealed tin), but not enough, so I'm looking to get some that will work well in either gun (thinking of the JCG matches or similar). I'm not planning on reloading 30-06 in quantity now, so I need an alternative.

Any thoughts?

ammoman.com has federal 150 gr. '06 for $350 for 500

[GentlemanJim]

I dont know what its worth in $$$

But I shot a bunch of it in DCM...It was pretty spanky stuff compaired to other 06 I shot

Around the same vintage as well

Jim

[Dan Sierpina]

Bart,

Boats is right. Let the collectors have it at that price. That's why the price is what it is, for the collectors. The CMP is supposed to be getting more 30-06 ammo in, it will be reasonably priced as is possible. The bullets in the LC match are FMJ's....pretty good FMJ's, but they did vary from lot to lot. Given that Hornady's 55 FMJ .224 bullet shoots extremely well, I'd get some cheap ammo, and change the bullet with a similar weight of a quality bullet if you wanted to shoot in a match.

Keep in mind, that for use in the Garand matches, the rifles have to be very close to "as issued". Some "blueprinting" is okay, no National Match parts, no unitized handguards or bedding is allowed.

[DMS42]

Hey all,

I found a large stash of Lake City 1968 (understand they were made in 67) Match 30-06 M-72 ammo today. They want $400 for 400 rounds (one ammo can full) or $800 for 800 rounds (a case). They probably had 20+ cases of this on hand.

What do you think of the price, and how would you compare it with the Hornady M-1 ammo that the CMP sells for $259 for 200?

Over Thanksgiving my father dropped off the 1903A3 he built for me. He just happened to have all the correct vintage parts to build a matching gun (1943) with the correct cartouches on the stock, serial number range that matches the barrel and the barrel is one he bought new in the wrapper back in the 60s. He built it up, headspaced it perfectly and then won a local match with it using cast bullets....it's never even seen a jacketed bullet yet! In a similar fashion he had all the parts (collected over the years similar to the 03A3) to build me a 1943-44 vintage correct M-1. I don't have that yet, but will on his next trip here, or my next trip there. I've got some decent ammo (some of the good Greek stuff in a sealed tin), but not enough, so I'm looking to get some that will work well in either gun (thinking of the JCG matches or similar). I'm not planning on reloading 30-06 in quantity now, so I need an alternative.

Any thoughts?

As others have said the ammo is a bit pricey. But if you buy and use it you'll end up with some excellent brass for reloading.

When I was shooting with an Air Guard team we had .30-06 Match Grade M1 rifles and we fired lots of M72 through those rifles. With the same ammo through a standard grade gun you may not be able to tell the difference between it and the Hornady ammo. You should be able to see some difference between the M72 and the Greek ammo.

At 200 yards the difference for me between the M72 and almost any other ammo (except for some hand loads) was the X count. All would hold the 10 ring if I did my part.

There certainly is cheaper ammo out there, but it may not shoot as well as the M72.

[ajg308]

Hey all,

I found a large stash of Lake City 1968 (understand they were made in 67) Match 30-06 M-72 ammo today. They want $400 for 400 rounds (one ammo can full) or $800 for 800 rounds (a case). They probably had 20+ cases of this on hand.

What do you think of the price, and how would you compare it with the Hornady M-1 ammo that the CMP sells for $259 for 200?

Over Thanksgiving my father dropped off the 1903A3 he built for me. He just happened to have all the correct vintage parts to build a matching gun (1943) with the correct cartouches on the stock, serial number range that matches the barrel and the barrel is one he bought new in the wrapper back in the 60s. He built it up, headspaced it perfectly and then won a local match with it using cast bullets....it's never even seen a jacketed bullet yet! In a similar fashion he had all the parts (collected over the years similar to the 03A3) to build me a 1943-44 vintage correct M-1. I don't have that yet, but will on his next trip here, or my next trip there. I've got some decent ammo (some of the good Greek stuff in a sealed tin), but not enough, so I'm looking to get some that will work well in either gun (thinking of the JCG matches or similar). I'm not planning on reloading 30-06 in quantity now, so I need an alternative.

Any thoughts?

I'd say go for it. You will not find better shooting ammo for cheaper. Another thing to consider is that it should hold it's value and maybe even go up if you ever change your mind.

[G-ManBart]

Keep in mind, that for use in the Garand matches, the rifles have to be very close to "as issued". Some "blueprinting" is okay, no National Match parts, no unitized handguards or bedding is allowed.

Noted. Both rifles will be completely legal for the Garand matches...other than the headspace being as close to perfect as possible and some smoothing/stoning on the trigger, that's about it....no bedding or NM parts. Both are as close to as issued as possible. The only deviation is that the 03A3 has a standard 03 bolt knob rather than an 03A3 knob, but the manual states that either is acceptable and they didn't differentiate between the two for overhaul purposes.

I think it's kind of funny, but a good thing, that they also allow 03s, 1917s, Johnsons and M-1 Carbines for these matches....I'll try to shoot both of mine in matches and see which works better for me, but I suspect the 03 will have the overall accuracy edge (if only slightly). R,

[G-ManBart]

Hey all,

I found a large stash of Lake City 1968 (understand they were made in 67) Match 30-06 M-72 ammo today. They want $400 for 400 rounds (one ammo can full) or $800 for 800 rounds (a case). They probably had 20+ cases of this on hand.

What do you think of the price, and how would you compare it with the Hornady M-1 ammo that the CMP sells for $259 for 200?

Over Thanksgiving my father dropped off the 1903A3 he built for me. He just happened to have all the correct vintage parts to build a matching gun (1943) with the correct cartouches on the stock, serial number range that matches the barrel and the barrel is one he bought new in the wrapper back in the 60s. He built it up, headspaced it perfectly and then won a local match with it using cast bullets....it's never even seen a jacketed bullet yet! In a similar fashion he had all the parts (collected over the years similar to the 03A3) to build me a 1943-44 vintage correct M-1. I don't have that yet, but will on his next trip here, or my next trip there. I've got some decent ammo (some of the good Greek stuff in a sealed tin), but not enough, so I'm looking to get some that will work well in either gun (thinking of the JCG matches or similar). I'm not planning on reloading 30-06 in quantity now, so I need an alternative.

Any thoughts?

As others have said the ammo is a bit pricey. But if you buy and use it you'll end up with some excellent brass for reloading.

When I was shooting with an Air Guard team we had .30-06 Match Grade M1 rifles and we fired lots of M72 through those rifles. With the same ammo through a standard grade gun you may not be able to tell the difference between it and the Hornady ammo. You should be able to see some difference between the M72 and the Greek ammo.

At 200 yards the difference for me between the M72 and almost any other ammo (except for some hand loads) was the X count. All would hold the 10 ring if I did my part.

There certainly is cheaper ammo out there, but it may not shoot as well as the M72.

I have one can of the Greek (HXP?) ammo on hand, but that's only 192 rounds. The CMP says they'll have more of that available in Fed/Mar so I'll plan on buying some more.

I was thinking that the LC match would also provide some really good brass, so the price wouldn't hurt as much. I guess I'm not so much worried about the price as a can or two would keep me set for a while...assuming it shoots pretty well. Maybe I should grab one can and see how it goes and if it's not clearly better I can sell it. Decisions, decisions! R,

[GentlemanJim]

Bart

I sold my match brass on ebay...back when you still could

They paid a hefty price for it ..it is still in demand

Jim

[DMS42]

I haven't priced out the Greek ammo from CMP. If the Greek stuff shoots good through your rifles it is less expensive. Maybe. I don't think that the brass is reloadable. If it isn't and you ever plan on reloading then the cost of brass can become a factor.

A long time ago I bought some LC ammo in 5 rds clips and some Danish ammo in the 8 rd clips thinking that I would use it in Garand matches instead of the M72 that I still had from the Air Guard. After a trip to the range for group testing and a couple of practice sessions at 200 yards I ended up using the M72 in Garand matches because it shot enough better to make a difference.

[gm iprod]

As others have said the ammo is a bit pricey. But if you buy and use it you'll end up with some excellent brass for reloading.

This is the key. You can't buy this quality of brass, projectiles etc for that money.

If you own buckets of good brass then fine load away. But you have time issues - none.

Buy it, shoot it, keep the brass. Load it again later. Buy as much as you can. The collectors will like you, because anything that is not shot up gets more valuable.

[twodownzero]

ammoman.com has federal 150 gr. '06 for $350 for 500

Please don't shoot commercial ammo in a Garand.

Don't let anyone convince you that you can't handload for it, either. You can. Just use the proper powders and don't hot rod it.

But please, whatever you do, stay away from commercial ammo.

[G-ManBart]

ammoman.com has federal 150 gr. '06 for $350 for 500

Please don't shoot commercial ammo in a Garand.

Don't let anyone convince you that you can't handload for it, either. You can. Just use the proper powders and don't hot rod it.

But please, whatever you do, stay away from commercial ammo.

There are some M-1 specific commercial loads available now. I know Hornady has one (CMP sells it) and I think I've seen or or two others. R,

[1chota]

ammoman.com has federal 150 gr. '06 for $350 for 500

Please don't shoot commercial ammo in a Garand.

Don't let anyone convince you that you can't handload for it, either. You can. Just use the proper powders and don't hot rod it.

But please, whatever you do, stay away from commercial ammo.

There are some M-1 specific commercial loads available now. I know Hornady has one (CMP sells it) and I think I've seen or or two others. R,

I should have clarified my info-Federal 150 gr. BALL ammo. I shoot it in my Garands. I also shoot Federal 168 match HP in my Garands.

[1chota]

ammoman.com has federal 150 gr. '06 for $350 for 500

Please don't shoot commercial ammo in a Garand.

Don't let anyone convince you that you can't handload for it, either. You can. Just use the proper powders and don't hot rod it.

But please, whatever you do, stay away from commercial ammo.

There are some M-1 specific commercial loads available now. I know Hornady has one (CMP sells it) and I think I've seen or or two others. R,

I should have clarified my info-Federal : 150 gr. BALL ammo. I shoot it in my Garands. I also shoot Federal 168 match HP in my Garands.

[1chota]

ammoman.com has federal 150 gr. '06 for $350 for 500

Please don't shoot commercial ammo in a Garand.

Don't let anyone convince you that you can't handload for it, either. You can. Just use the proper powders and don't hot rod it.

But please, whatever you do, stay away from commercial ammo.

There are some M-1 specific commercial loads available now. I know Hornady has one (CMP sells it) and I think I've seen or or two others. R,

I should have clarified my info-Federal 150 gr. BALL ammo. I shoot it in my Garands. I also shoot Federal 168 match HP in my Garands.

[twodownzero]

ammoman.com has federal 150 gr. '06 for $350 for 500

Please don't shoot commercial ammo in a Garand.

Don't let anyone convince you that you can't handload for it, either. You can. Just use the proper powders and don't hot rod it.

But please, whatever you do, stay away from commercial ammo.

There are some M-1 specific commercial loads available now. I know Hornady has one (CMP sells it) and I think I've seen or or two others. R,

I should have clarified my info-Federal 150 gr. BALL ammo. I shoot it in my Garands. I also shoot Federal 168 match HP in my Garands.

The bullet is not what makes the difference.

Factory ammo uses slower powders than what the Garand is designed for. You shouldn't be shooting that ammo in your Garand and if you continue to do so, you may damage it.

Mine gets nothing but 4895 (H or IMR in appropriate quantities) handloads.

[G-ManBart]

Factory ammo uses slower powders than what the Garand is designed for. You shouldn't be shooting that ammo in your Garand and if you continue to do so, you may damage it.

Mine gets nothing but 4895 (H or IMR in appropriate quantities) handloads.

Some factory ammo does, but not all. That Federal with the 168 SMK is listed at 2700fps out of a test barrel, so they may not be loading it with a powder slow enough to cause a problem. You'd hope that Federal would have thought "okay, who's shooting 30-06 match ammo?" when they developed that load....which is almost only going to be M-1 shooters these days. I'm sure a quick e-mail to them would get some sort of response. Hunting ammo is the bigger problem......almost any of that will be loaded with a powder slow enough to cause issues.

[twodownzero]

Factory ammo uses slower powders than what the Garand is designed for. You shouldn't be shooting that ammo in your Garand and if you continue to do so, you may damage it.

Mine gets nothing but 4895 (H or IMR in appropriate quantities) handloads.

Some factory ammo does, but not all. That Federal with the 168 SMK is listed at 2700fps out of a test barrel, so they may not be loading it with a powder slow enough to cause a problem. You'd hope that Federal would have thought "okay, who's shooting 30-06 match ammo?" when they developed that load....which is almost only going to be M-1 shooters these days. I'm sure a quick e-mail to them would get some sort of response. Hunting ammo is the bigger problem......almost any of that will be loaded with a powder slow enough to cause issues.

It's not about final velocity. 2700 FPS out of a 168 grain pill is definitely too slow of a powder for a garand.

The Garand is not designed for commercial ammo, period. It has a narrow range of powders for which its gas system is designed, and most people don't recommend even a small amount of deviation from that list.

People who have been reloading for the Garand for years have warned me against using BLC(2) and Varget in it--both of which are very close to the 4895 and 4064 that the military used in its Garands.

I've come to the conclusion, for me, that I won't load anything except for those two powders for my Garand. And never, under any circumstances, would I attempt to load/fire any commercial ammo, regardless of spec, in my Garand.

[G-ManBart]

Factory ammo uses slower powders than what the Garand is designed for. You shouldn't be shooting that ammo in your Garand and if you continue to do so, you may damage it.

Mine gets nothing but 4895 (H or IMR in appropriate quantities) handloads.

Some factory ammo does, but not all. That Federal with the 168 SMK is listed at 2700fps out of a test barrel, so they may not be loading it with a powder slow enough to cause a problem. You'd hope that Federal would have thought "okay, who's shooting 30-06 match ammo?" when they developed that load....which is almost only going to be M-1 shooters these days. I'm sure a quick e-mail to them would get some sort of response. Hunting ammo is the bigger problem......almost any of that will be loaded with a powder slow enough to cause issues.

It's not about final velocity. 2700 FPS out of a 168 grain pill is definitely too slow of a powder for a garand.

The Garand is not designed for commercial ammo, period. It has a narrow range of powders for which its gas system is designed, and most people don't recommend even a small amount of deviation from that list.

People who have been reloading for the Garand for years have warned me against using BLC(2) and Varget in it--both of which are very close to the 4895 and 4064 that the military used in its Garands.

I've come to the conclusion, for me, that I won't load anything except for those two powders for my Garand. And never, under any circumstances, would I attempt to load/fire any commercial ammo, regardless of spec, in my Garand.

I never said it was all about final velocity. Hornady's 168gr M-1 load, with specific mid-range powders, is listed at exactly 2,700fps. No way, no how, Hornady is selling ammo that's going to hurt an M-1 if they're labelling it as "M-1 ammo"....and you're a heck of a lot more likely to hurt your M-1 with your ammo than that stuff. Hecll, the CMP sells it FOR M-1s. Obviously they're about the worlds foremost experts on M-1s and if they say it's okay, it's okay.

Take it another step. Hodgdon's data shows a starting load of 4895 at 2,719 and a starting load of 4064 at 2,660. Max for them is 2,859 and 2,850 respectively....so using the two powders people always recommend for M-1s, it's no problem to get the velocity Hornady is claiming....I wouldn't be surprised if they were using one of those two (and I'd lay odds on 4895 since it meters better).

Oh, that M-72 ammo I started the thread about, it's a 173gr (actual weight is really almost always 174r) listed at 2650fps). So, the load above is necessarily out of the ballpark, i.e. you can get 2700 out of a 168 without going to powders that are too slow. What is out of the ballpark is stuff like Hornady's 165gr SST ammo that they list at 2,960fps...a 260fps jump with essentially the same bullet. That requires a significantly slower powder, which is when we run into the problem.

Saying a Garand is not designed for commercial ammo is a bit too extreme. There's commercial ammo and then there's commercial ammo. It's not all loaded to the same specs. Granted, I'm not a world expert on Garands, but I have been shooting and loading for them off an on for the last 26 years. Yes, if you look at my profile and check my age, I really did start shooting high-power matches with a Garand when I was 13....honest. I haven't had any experience with the match ammo I started the thread about, but I've burned up quite a bit of M2 ball over the years. Most of the M2 ball we're getting now is just commercial ammo made to look like military ammo.

Now, I've got more 4064 and 4895 around than anything else, but I'm certain there are other powders in the mid-range that would work just fine, and not hurt an M-1. Pull bullets on real issued M2 and you'll find obviously different powders used...some ball, some stick....etc. More than one way to skin the cat if you use reasonable precautions. R,

[twodownzero]

I agree with your points. I also try to err on the safe side because my Garand is as old as my dad, and it's a part of my collection that I want to pass onto my own children.