Revolver division: two scenarios

[mhs]

I'm going to sign up for Limited-10, shoot 10, then reload to a big stick with 29 rounds, and finish the 32-round stage with only one reload. Same flawed logic. Guess what? I'm in Open after the first stunt.

Those who read and comprehend the rules realize that limited-10 is indeed limited to "maximum 10 rounds loaded in any magazine after the start signal."

In your case, your thinking is flawed.

In the case I represented, the rule is not clearly written, or means something other than what is considered normal practice by most posters in this thread.

[mhs]

9 Maximum ammunition capacity No, maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload

From Appendix D6 - I think that is cristal clear. Maximum ammunition capacity - no - You can use a 7 or 8 shot revolver - maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload but you must reload after firing 6 rounds. Six, reload, six, reload, six. I don't see how anyone could confuse that with 6, reload, do whatever the heck you want.

Where did you get the "but you must reload after firing 6 rounds."?

[Flexmoney]

You have a point. It could be written better. But, you aren't going to get to shoot more than 6 without going to Open.

As I said earlier, send in your upgraded wording for the rule to your Area Director and to NROI for their consideration during the next rule book update.

[granderojo]

mhs,

You're welcome to file for arbiration if you like to satisfy your answer. Be advised that you will need to put up $100 to file for arbitration on this or any other matter that you feel like is being incorrectly applied or wrong. See chapter 11 pg 50 #11.3.1. If you don't have a current rule book, it's available on the USPSA web site.

See Appendix D 6 -- Revolver Division pg. 78 # 9 "Maximum ammunition capacity --- No, maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload"

Granderojo I am a certified and current. NROI RO.

Hopefully this will answer your question and resolve the issue.

BTW See chapter pg 43 #10.2.4 . "A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur a procedural for each shot fired after the point where the required reload was required until a reload is performed." In the case of a revolver, that's where the 6th shot is fired. You could have had this one enforced as well.

Edited December 18, 2009 by granderojo

[chemepharmd]

I think that the people who wrote the rules probably thought that their wording was sufficient since "almost" everyone understands the intent of the rule. They are not perfect and are probably not all English majors. Also, they have enough problems with other divisions, and revolver should be a relatively easy set of rules in comparison.

I agree with the recommendations above. You can either contact your area director or NROI, and they can decide what to do about it. Another alternative is to try it out at a match and arbitrate when you get bumped to open. Either way, I'd guess that revolver shooters will continue to only be allowed to fire 6 rounds at any given time in a stage / match before a reload becomes mandatory.

[mhs]

BTW See chapter pg 43 #10.2.4 . "A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur a procedural for each shot fired after the point where the required reload was required until a reload is performed." In the case of a revolver, that's where the 6th shot is fired. You could have had this one enforced as well.

Are you familiar with 1.1.5?

[Steve J]

9 Maximum ammunition capacity No, maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload

From Appendix D6 - I think that is cristal clear. Maximum ammunition capacity - no - You can use a 7 or 8 shot revolver - maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload but you must reload after firing 6 rounds. Six, reload, six, reload, six. I don't see how anyone could confuse that with 6, reload, do whatever the heck you want.

Where did you get the "but you must reload after firing 6 rounds."?

Maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload. Plain, simple and crystal clear.

[granderojo]

1.1.5 does not apply nor is it relevant in this case. The mandatory reload is because of App. D for revolvers as has been stated. It would be the same for Production or Limited 10 if a competitor in either class took more that the alotted number of shots as described in App. D for the class that they are shooting.

10.2.4 says nothing about course of fire!

Scenario 1 would get 4 procedurals and scenario 2 would get 2 procedurals.

[D.Hayden]

Nope..

Scenario 1.. shooter goes to Open - no procedurals

Scenario 2.. shooter goes to Open - no procedurals

Like Steve said.. it's very clear.. I can't understand what's not clear about that..

This question seems to be more of a joke?

[MVZ]

Could this thread possibly be closed.... to be re-opened on 4-1-10

[Nik Habicht]

mhs,

You're welcome to file for arbiration if you like to satisfy your answer. Be advised that you will need to put up $100 to file for arbitration on this or any other matter that you feel like is being incorrectly applied or wrong. See chapter 11 pg 50 #11.3.1. If you don't have a current rule book, it's available on the USPSA web site.

See Appendix D 6 -- Revolver Division pg. 78 # 9 "Maximum ammunition capacity --- No, maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload"

Granderojo I am a certified and current. NROI RO.

Hopefully this will answer your question and resolve the issue.

BTW See chapter pg 43 #10.2.4 . "A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur a procedural for each shot fired after the point where the required reload was required until a reload is performed." In the case of a revolver, that's where the 6th shot is fired. You could have had this one enforced as well.

I'll point out that the arb fee changed in the current rule book --- it's $100 or the maximum individual entry fee, whichever is lower --- so arbs at local matches should be fairly inexpensive.....

Good luck enforcing 10.2.4 since mandatory reloads are only available in short and medium courses at Level 1 matches....

[chemepharmd]

This question seems to be more of a joke?

I've been wondering the same thing the whole time. Seems like a waste of time to have made so many replies...

[mhs]

Nope..

Scenario 1.. shooter goes to Open - no procedurals

Scenario 2.. shooter goes to Open - no procedurals

Like Steve said.. it's very clear.. I can't understand what's not clear about that..

This question seems to be more of a joke?

The first scenario almost came up in a match a while back. The competitor, who was new to revolver division, had read the rules and honestly thought that they meant 6 shots max to the first reload, no limits after. Happily, I found out about it before the stage began. I explained that the rules meant 6 shots max without a reload, and he complied.

I was reading a different internet forum last week, and in relation to that I went over the USPSA revolver rules again.

If you read the rule, and don't add or take anything away from it, the 6 round limit applies only before reloads. Read it carefully without a preconceived notion of what it is supposed to say.

I started this topic because I've never heard of an exception to 6 shots max, and I thought that I might be missing something in the rules or there might be an interpretation I didn't know about.

It was refreshing to see some of the posters acknowledge that the rule was not written as well as it could be.

It was entertaining to see some try to explain a 6 round max limit by making the reload mandatory, and even assigning proceedurals. Scary that they could be running stages.

For those of you who think some parts of rules are more important than others, and that you may add a few extra words to make the rule's intent clear, why do you presume to know the intent? Even if you are right, how is a new shooter supposed to know the intent?

And yes, I am a gamer.

[Nik Habicht]

For those of you who think some parts of rules are more important than others, and that you may add a few extra words to make the rule's intent clear, why do you presume to know the intent?

Perhaps on the basis of the education we've received from NROI.....

....you know, those pesky RO/CRO classes some of us have taken and actually passed.....

Perhaps on the basis of discussions we've had with NROI RMIs, or on the basis of queries to DNROI.....

How likely is it that we're just making this up?

Even if you are right, how is a new shooter supposed to know the intent?

The same way most of us figured it out --- by asking experienced and knowledgeable members of NROI (and by repeatedly arguing with them..... :roflol: )

[Steve J]

Deleted.

Why continue to beat a dead horse? Right is right and wrong is wrong. Perhaps it's time to lock this one.

Edited December 18, 2009 by Steve J

[mactiger]

An excellent answer, and the correct one. The wording is clear. You can use a revolver with whatever capacity you choose, but you must make a reload after firing 6 shots. This is regardless of what the course description says, and has nothing to do with any mandatory reload required by the WSB. Revolvers may only fire 6 shots, and then must reload. It's a division rule.

Troy

9 Maximum ammunition capacity No, maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload

From Appendix D6 - I think that is cristal clear. Maximum ammunition capacity - no - You can use a 7 or 8 shot revolver - maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload but you must reload after firing 6 rounds. Six, reload, six, reload, six. I don't see how anyone could confuse that with 6, reload, do whatever the heck you want.

[Bubber]

9 Maximum ammunition capacity No, maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload

From Appendix D6 - I think that is cristal clear. Maximum ammunition capacity - no - You can use a 7 or 8 shot revolver - maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload but you must reload after firing 6 rounds. Six, reload, six, reload, six. I don't see how anyone could confuse that with 6, reload, do whatever the heck you want.

Where did you get the "but you must reload after firing 6 rounds."?

........Nevermind......

[chemepharmd]

Perhaps it's time to lock this one.

Actually, I was thinking it might fit in the comedy section .

[Jack T]

Yeah, I just don't get the point. All rules are open to interpretation, you ask five people you will get five different answers, so what's the point? A mental exercise perhaps? It was entertaining? Wow, the rule book is not perfect!! Go figure.

Yes, the rules may be vague, and some people will argue about intent, but we know revolver means shoot 6 reload shoot 6. No more than 6 rounds fired without a reload. Nothing difficult about that.

What happened to head to head racing? That's what it's about. It starts to degrade the integrity of the sport when people try and bend the rules to give themselves an advantage. If you can't compete head to head what's the satisfaction of competing?

It's like running a 220 race halfway arround the perimeter of a football field. The true sportsman knows you run arround the field but the gamer wants to cut accross the field and say, "Well, no one said I couldn't do it."

What did you win? Hell, maybe I am of another generation that wants to earn my accomplishments thru hard work and practice, not by bending/manipulating the rules.

Oh well!!

Jack

Edited December 19, 2009 by Jack T