Revolver division: two scenarios

[mhs]

First: Competitor shoots 6, reloads, shoots 8, reloads, shoots 8. Says "I only shot 8 after a reload, not before, so I complied with division requirements. What do you think?

Second: Competitor shoots 6, reloads, shoots 6, reloads, shoots 8. COF is over. He only shot 6 before a reload. Is this OK? If not, where is the rule?

Maybe I'm missing something obvious.

Mark

[chemepharmd]

Sorry, man, but if you don't want to get bumped up to open, it's only 6 shots in between reloads (assuming you're shooting USPSA). Any time you shoot 8 before doing a reload, you would have had to do a reload after the first 6 rounds, any way you look at it, to stay in revolver.

[Bubber]

mhs, Good thinking...But flawed.. Appendix D6. Maximum of 6 shots before reload. When Shooter shoots 6 thne reloads then shoots 8 he has shot over the maximum shots before reload, not to be confused wtih "a" reload or "the" reload. Just plan reload. On the 7th shot it is off to rule 6.2.5.1. To paraphrase if the competitors fails to satisfy equipment or other requirements the competitor shall be placed in Open if available or shoot for no score.

You can shoot 5 before reload ore 4 but no more than 6 before reload. later rdd

[mhs]

mhs, Good thinking...But flawed.. Appendix D6. Maximum of 6 shots before reload. When Shooter shoots 6 thne reloads then shoots 8 he has shot over the maximum shots before reload, not to be confused wtih "a" reload or "the" reload. Just plan reload. On the 7th shot it is off to rule 6.2.5.1. To paraphrase if the competitors fails to satisfy equipment or other requirements the competitor shall be placed in Open if available or shoot for no score.

You can shoot 5 before reload ore 4 but no more than 6 before reload. later rdd

How about the second example? 6 before reload, 8 after, no more reloads?

I should have put this in the rules forum. Is there a way for me to move it?

Edited December 17, 2009 by mhs

[chemepharmd]

As far as I know, only a Mod can move it.

The rule is basically saying that a reload is mandatory after you have fired 6 shots (assuming you need to fire more shots).

[scottyinAZ]

In uspsa you can only fire 6 shots then you must reload. Repeat this until you have completed the course of fire. Only 6 shots at a time. No 6 then 8 or 5 then 7. You may fire 6 shots max then it becomes mandatory to reload. Or sign up in limited 10 with your 8 shot.

[mhs]

In uspsa you can only fire 6 shots then you must reload. Repeat this until you have completed the course of fire. Only 6 shots at a time. No 6 then 8 or 5 then 7. You may fire 6 shots max then it becomes mandatory to reload. Or sign up in limited 10 with your 8 shot.

Where is there a restriction other than "maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload"? If I shoot 8 and then UASC, what rule did I violate?

[Jim Rusert]

In uspsa you can only fire 6 shots then you must reload. Repeat this until you have completed the course of fire. Only 6 shots at a time. No 6 then 8 or 5 then 7. You may fire 6 shots max then it becomes mandatory to reload. Or sign up in limited 10 with your 8 shot.

Where is there a restriction other than "maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload"? If I shoot 8 and then UASC, what rule did I violate?

What do you mean, an African or European Swallow?

(OK, sorry, my bad, Monty Python thread drift is on.)

[Bubber]

In uspsa you can only fire 6 shots then you must reload. Repeat this until you have completed the course of fire. Only 6 shots at a time. No 6 then 8 or 5 then 7. You may fire 6 shots max then it becomes mandatory to reload. Or sign up in limited 10 with your 8 shot.

Where is there a restriction other than "maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload"? If I shoot 8 and then UASC, what rule did I violate?

Rule 6.2.5.1 Failure to satisfy the equipment or "other" requirement ( Maximum of 6 shots fired before reload) of declared Division during a course of fire.

[hockeyfighter25]

In uspsa you can only fire 6 shots then you must reload. Repeat this until you have completed the course of fire. Only 6 shots at a time. No 6 then 8 or 5 then 7. You may fire 6 shots max then it becomes mandatory to reload. Or sign up in limited 10 with your 8 shot.

Where is there a restriction other than "maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload"? If I shoot 8 and then UASC, what rule did I violate?

Rule 6.2.5.1 Failure to satisfy the equipment or "other" requirement ( Maximum of 6 shots fired before reload) of declared Division during a course of fire.

But, he didn't violate the rule because he didn't reload right?

[chemepharmd]

If that's the case, someone needs to invent a 32-shot revolver so you never have to reload (assuming you don't miss).

To me, the following words are implied:

"maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload" becomes mandatory

Sorry, but USPSA revolver division only allows 6 shots without a mandatory reload, otherwise you can choose to shoot another division or get bumped to open.

Edited December 17, 2009 by chemepharmd

[mhs]

To me, the following words are implied:

"maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload" becomes mandatory

That's a problem, if you are in a position to enforce that interpretation (unless you're NROI). Matches are meant to be run according to what is written in the rule book, not according to what someone thinks it may imply.

[Flexmoney]

Whoever would game revolver division...needs to be shooting with the Open shooters. lol

The rule says and means, "...a maximum of 6 rounds fired..."

One can try to read it funny...get bumped to Open...and then try arbitrating it.

[Bubber]

To me, the following words are implied:

"maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload" becomes mandatory

That's a problem, if you are in a position to enforce that interpretation (unless you're NROI). Matches are meant to be run according to what is written in the rule book, not according to what someone thinks it may imply.

The point of the max of 6 before reload, is the maximum of 6 shots, not the reload part. If you have fired 7 shots you have exceeded the 6 shot before reload whether you reload or not. That is the violation part of the case, although the penalty seems quite harsh a large advantage can be gained by firing the estra shots. I think we pretty mush beat the dead horse on this one. What is the old saying " Listen to understand. Do not listen to reply" I understand the point that you make in wishing to enforce the rule as written, and as written there is a maximum of 6 shots before reload, up to that point you may reload at anytime the next shot over 6 is the violation. Roger Davis Just a revo shooter rd

[Carmoney]

Whoever would game revolver division...needs to be shooting with the Open shooters. lol

Exactly. The whole point of shooting Revolver is to create the most demanding challenge available in the game, and to compete with other like-minded shooters who are all using essentially the same equipment.

I dare anybody to try to pull this stunt at a major match while shooting on the squad with the Revo "regulars." We will relentlessly berate and shame you into absolute oblivion.

[Jack T]

Whoever would game revolver division...needs to be shooting with the Open shooters. lol

Exactly. The whole point of shooting Revolver is to create the most demanding challenge available in the game, and to compete with other like-minded shooters who are all using essentially the same equipment.

I dare anybody to try to pull this stunt at a major match while shooting on the squad with the Revo "regulars." We will relentlessly berate and shame you into absolute oblivion.

That's why I moved to revolver division. Tired of the gamers!!!!

JT

[Stlhead]

There is nothing wrong with gamers, only if the gaming goes so far as to actually cross the fine line into the absurd. Part of the fun is solving problems in the best way allowed by the rules, but firing 8 from your wheel gun is against the rules.

[mhs]

If that's the case, someone needs to invent a 32-shot revolver so you never have to reload (assuming you don't miss).

To me, the following words are implied:

"maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload" becomes mandatory

Whoever would game revolver division...needs to be shooting with the Open shooters. lol

The rule says and means, "...a maximum of 6 rounds fired..."

The point of the max of 6 before reload, is the maximum of 6 shots, not the reload part.

Think how easy it would be if the rule said "a maximum of 6 rounds fired without a reload." Then we wouldn't need to guess what the intent was, and add words or leave out parts to match our interpretations.

So if I do it for fun and it goes to arbitration, does anyone think I'd have a chance?

[Flexmoney]

Think how easy it would be if the rule said "a maximum of 6 rounds fired without a reload." Then we wouldn't need to guess what the intent was, and add words or leave out parts to match our interpretations.

Perhaps the wording could be tweaked a bit the next time the rule book is updated. You should send a note to your Area Director and to NROI...suggesting better wording.

So if I do it for fun and it goes to arbitration, does anyone think I'd have a chance?

That would be a great big heeeeeeeeell no. Everybody knows that 6 means 6.

I think you ought to do it though. It would be neat to see how many rocks your squad mates would put in your range bag...what they would write on the signs that they tape to your back...and how many direct hits with water balloons there would be at the end of the day.

Sounds like fun.

[Carmoney]

So if I do it for fun and it goes to arbitration, does anyone think I'd have a chance?

Are you an attractive female shooter with sponsors? If so, you can probably get whatever you need from the arb committee......

[mhs]

So if I do it for fun and it goes to arbitration, does anyone think I'd have a chance?

Are you an attractive female shooter with sponsors? If so, you can probably get whatever you need from the arb committee......

Attractive female...no. Sponsors...no. And both are unlikely to change.

[chemepharmd]

That would be a great big heeeeeeeeell no.

[Steve J]

I'm going to sign up for Limited-10, shoot 10, then reload to a big stick with 29 rounds, and finish the 32-round stage with only one reload. Same flawed logic. Guess what? I'm in Open after the first stunt.

[cas]

I guess the point is, even though we know what it means, it should say exactly what it means.

[Steve J]

9 Maximum ammunition capacity No, maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload

From Appendix D6 - I think that is cristal clear. Maximum ammunition capacity - no - You can use a 7 or 8 shot revolver - maximum of 6 rounds fired before reload but you must reload after firing 6 rounds. Six, reload, six, reload, six. I don't see how anyone could confuse that with 6, reload, do whatever the heck you want.