Gun Handling

[Sarge]

Hey Shooters, Happy Holidays!

Just trying to get some conversation started and learn a little in the process.

Now, finally, to my question. If you are at a match and see a squad member pull a gun out of his bag or holster to show a buddy what would you do? It is a DQ, but how would you handle it if you are NOT an acting RO? Does an RO need to witness it or can a DQ be issued on hearsay or admission? How would you bring it to the attention of an RO and when?

Now, if you ARE an acting RO how would you want to be told about it? Would you want to hear " stop"? Would you want to be interrupted anytime before the start signal of another shooter or would you want to hear about it after the present run?

Also, any input from a shooters perspective would be great also. If you were loaded and ready to go would you want to hear, "STOP !"? What if you were already shooting? I don't think I would want to hear it either way unless I screwed up or there was a dire emergency.

Thanks for any consructive input you may have.

[kgunz11]

I'd probably mention it to the RM and let them decide how to handle it. If they didn't see it happen, I wouldn't expect them to do much about it.

[dcbfluff]

Not sure I get the "Acting RO" thing you mentioned. You might not have a timer in your hand, but you are always an RO when you see a safety violation.

Having said that, one of the worst/most uncorfortable DQ's I ever did was when I was building a stage and another RO drove by and and shouted "Hey, those two guys are handling a gun in the trunk of a car, you need to go DQ them" and drove off.

I walked over and asked "were you guys handling a gun someplace besides the Safe Area? Do you know that is a DQ?" Sadly, their answer was yes and yes.

Bottom line is that I have never had anything but regret (maybe sometimes fear, when looking at a muzzle) any time I have told a shooter that his/her actions constitute a DQ. You don't have to be an "Acting RO" to take action to protect other shooters and enforce the rules. It's one of those "You don't have to like it, but you do have to do it" things.

[Sarge]

Acting RO refers to an actual assigned working RO for a given squad, stage or match. I have never agreed that everyone is an RO. Somebody is the assigned RO and somebody is the assistant. Too many RO's can be a problem as well I think. I do agree that everyone is responsible for safety.

I feel more in line with Kgunz response as far as leaving it up to match officials. But I am still curious as to what other thoughts might be.

[wide45]

7.3.2 References in these rules to Range Officials (e.g. “Range Officer”,

“Range Master” etc.), mean personnel who have been officially

appointed by match organizers to actually serve in an official capacity

at the match. Persons who are certified Range Officials, but who are

actually participating in the match as regular competitors, have no

standing or authority as Range Officials for that match. Such persons

should therefore not participate in the match wearing garments bearing

Range Official insignia.

[dcbfluff]

While I strongly concur with not needing range commands (or warnings) from the peanut gallery while running a shooter through a course of fire, I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing.

As a range/safety officer, whether it is designated from your local club or from a national organization like USPSA or IDPA, I think you have an obligation to enforce/point out safety rules even when you don't have a timer in your hand. There have been plenty of times when any one of us was busy running shooters and hoping/counting on the responsible adults (other RO/SOs) to make sure folks behind usaren't handling their guns.

The situation described by the original post was a safety violation NOT under the direct supervision of a range official (not during the course of fire). Damn right I'm going to say something. While it may (and probably should) be up to the Match Director to tell the individual that they are DQ'd, I don't think it is a choice or a decision: you have to tell the shooter to stop what they are doing when they are handling a gun outside of a safe area.

[shootingchef]

tell them to stop, explain to them what the problem is , find the RM and let him/her deal with it.

[Jadeslade]

Building a stage and told to go DQ someone??? At their car? Before the match starts? People bring guns all the time to sell or get fixed. Something is not being communicated here. Really tiny range?

[shootingchef]

If you touch a firearm at a area that is under the governance of a USPSA match, the rules apply, even before the match starts.

2.5.2 Where no Unloading/Loading station is provided, a competitor who

arrives at a match in possession of a loaded firearm and proceeds

immediately to a match official for the express purpose of safely

unloading the firearm shall not be subject to disqualification per the

provisions of Rule 10.5.13.

10.5.13 Having a loaded firearm other than when specifically ordered to by the

Range Officer.

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area

or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command

issued by, a Range Officer.

Edited December 14, 2009 by shootingchef

[kgunz11]

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area

or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command

issued by, a Range Officer.

The rules are pretty clear when you are on a USPSA affiliated range. If you want to sell or show guns, do it at the safe area or a gas station on the way to the range. I recently did a gun sell at a match, every bit of it happened at a designated safe area. I'm not saying I totally agree with it, but I will say I feel much safer at a range that enforces such rules. My wife is walking around out there and I don't know how I'd handle someone pointing a gun at her.

[Nik Habicht]

7.3.2 References in these rules to Range Officials (e.g. “Range Officer”,

“Range Master” etc.), mean personnel who have been officially

appointed by match organizers to actually serve in an official capacity

at the match. Persons who are certified Range Officials, but who are

actually participating in the match as regular competitors, have no

standing or authority as Range Officials for that match. Such persons

should therefore not participate in the match wearing garments bearing

Range Official insignia.

At Level 1 matches using embedded ROs, I'd argue that every NROI certified member is part of the match staff --- and has authority and responsibility to act as such when witnessing a safety violation.....

[Nik Habicht]

tell them to stop, explain to them what the problem is , find the RM and let him/her deal with it.

That's pretty much the perfect answer....

[Nik Habicht]

Building a stage and told to go DQ someone??? At their car? Before the match starts? People bring guns all the time to sell or get fixed. Something is not being communicated here. Really tiny range?

A car is not a safe area. Finding one, or an area of the range that isn't either the parking lot or part of the area under control of the USPSA club shouldn't be hard....

[wide45]

tell them to stop, explain to them what the problem is , find the RM and let him/her deal with it.

That's pretty much the perfect answer....

I'd agree.

At Level 1 matches using embedded ROs, I'd argue that every NROI certified member is part of the match staff --- and has authority and responsibility to act as such when witnessing a safety violation.....

I disagree here.

If you are working as an RO that day, then thats what you are when not shooting. If you are not working as an RO that day, you have no more authority than any other competitor.

[JThompson]

I've seen half a squad yell stop on a squib..... also heard some pretty good yells and diving when a squad got swept. Say you see a kid come over a berm.... This is a bit of a stretch, but I wanted to make a point, if you see something really unsafe, you need to respond.

For this example Chris has the right answer... although if the problem is quickly corrected, and I'm not working the match, I may just go about my business.

JT

Edited December 14, 2009 by JThompson

[Nik Habicht]

At Level 1 matches using embedded ROs, I'd argue that every NROI certified member is part of the match staff --- and has authority and responsibility to act as such when witnessing a safety violation.....

I disagree here.

If you are working as an RO that day, then thats what you are when not shooting. If you are not working as an RO that day, you have no more authority than any other competitor.

So at what point to I become a match official? Do I need to pick up the clipboard or timer in order to join the match staff? Or is the likelihood that I'll be officiating at some point today good enough?

I can't remember the last Level 1 match where I didn't RO, scorekeep or RM at some point.....

[Steve J]

My pet peeve is people who come to me with perceived problems instead of handling it themselves. If you see a problem, man-up and fix it yourself.

It was mentioned above. Everyone is a Range Officer / Safety Officer where safety is concerned. At the very least, stop what's going on and explain why you're stopping it.

[Ron Ankeny]

If you are not working as an RO that day, you have no more authority than any other competitor.

I agree, but of course we still have a moral (and common sense) obligation to correct unsafe actions in the absence of match staff.

[kgunz11]

With all do respect Ron, is handling a gun unsafe? I mean of course both parties looking at the gun would need to verify it is clear, not point it at anything they do not intend to shoot, and keep their finger out of the trigger guard. People waving guns around make me nervous too.

[VegasOPM]

This is an interesting issue. The range where we hold our matches is a member's only range and the USPSA match (of which I am the MD) is assigned 5 bays (out of 20). Anything that happens outside of those ranges during a club match is under the direction of the host club, and not USPSA. How could I DQ a club member for club authorized behavior on club property that is not under the direct control of USPSA? That would be the same as DQing them for handling at the gas station if I saw them there before the match. If they choose to go to another bay or another part of the club grounds and handle weapons, that is up to them. Obviously, once they are in the bays and actively part of the match, all USPSA rules would apply.

[kgunz11]

My pet peeve is people who come to me with perceived problems instead of handling it themselves. If you see a problem, man-up and fix it yourself.

It was mentioned above. Everyone is a Range Officer / Safety Officer where safety is concerned. At the very least, stop what's going on and explain why you're stopping it.

Actually Steve, some of us aren't Range Officers, what do we do then? That's the reason I suggested seeking out the RM and let them handle it. They will know within the club or USPSA rules how the situation should be handled.

One of the local club matches we attend is on the grounds of a gun club as mentioned above. It's not uncommon at all for other folks to be present at the club and shooting on other bays while a match is going on. If they are not participating in the match it should be a non-issue for them to inspect or show guns at their car right?

I should also mention that my local gun club was a hot range. The leadership at the club desired the participation of my wife and I and we told them we were uncomfortable with it being a "hot range". The very next weekend they had a table with a sign that said "fiddle zone" and new signs declaring it a cold range. They have good intentions, but we're a long way from educating all the members in what the purpose of the safe area is. And how are you going to DQ someone not shooting in the match?

I don't have the answers, just a lot of questions.

[Sarge]

I don't have the answers, just a lot of questions.

And they are good questions indeed.

[Flexmoney]

Except for the cases where the gun goes off all by itself ... guns go off while being handled.

Rule #1 ... All guns are LOADED.

[Ron Ankeny]

With all do respect Ron, is handling a gun unsafe?

Rule 10.5 pretty much covers what is or isn't "unsafe". So yes, under some circumstances the simple act of handling a firearm is indeed unsafe. Our club shoots at a public range so we don't control what people do at their vehicle before they register. There are shooting bays available for public use in addition to the bays we use so we don't police the parking lot.

[kgunz11]

10.5.1 Handling a firearm at any time except when in a designated safety area

or when under the supervision of, and in response to a direct command

issued by, a Range Officer.

I handle guns every day and I just don't think I am "unsafe" while doing it. I know you do to and I don't think you are unsafe while doing it either. I guess the point here though is we should assume we are talking about match competitors, so they DO fall under jurisdiction of USPSA rules. Before they sign up for the match, are they competitors? Can they be DQ'd before they register?