Need some help with sight focus

[Corey]

There may be more out there than you think. I was out there with the tape for many years.

be

i guess that makes me feel a little better, haha.

[Dwight Stearns]

Something else to consider that's not so mainstream.

I use a target focus even with iron sights...

I believe there are a lot more upper level shooters using target focus than are willing to admit.

The problem with front sight focus, especially for a newer shooter, is the problem of binocular vision.

Front sight focus with both eyes open is not a natural act.

When shooters use front sight focus with both eyes open they will see two fuzzy images of the target. One image will be the true image (the one lined up with their sights and their dominant eye) and the other will be a false image (the one seen by the non-dominant eye). The problem is that it is sometimes difficult the determine which image is which, especially under stress. Because of this difficulty shooters resort to closing or squinting their non-dominant eye to eliminate or weaken the false image.

On the other hand, target focus with both eyes open is completely natural. We have all been doing it since about age 2 and we have reenforced it millions of times. Every time we point at something or throw a ball or even drive a car for that matter we reenforce target focus. Yes we have the same issue of binocular vision but when target focus is used we now see two sets of fuzzy sights. Again one set will be a true image and one will be a false image. The difference is it is natural and easy to line our dominant eye with the true image of those sights. Just like pointing our finger.

I'm not about to say that target focus is right and front sight focus is wrong. They can both be right. Using front sight focus with one eye, front sight focus with both eyes, or target focus with both eyes is less of an issue than the concentration on that sight picture. fuzzy or not. I even know of several top level shooters that use an intermediate distance focus (focus on nothing) but concentrate on that sight picture and shoot extremely well.

Which ever you decide is right for you, concentrate on the sight picture, see what you need to see and practice.

Dwight

[Corey]

Something else to consider that's not so mainstream.

I use a target focus even with iron sights...

I believe there are a lot more upper level shooters using target focus than are willing to admit.

The problem with front sight focus, especially for a newer shooter, is the problem of binocular vision.

Front sight focus with both eyes open is not a natural act.

When shooters use front sight focus with both eyes open they will see two fuzzy images of the target. One image will be the true image (the one lined up with their sights and their dominant eye) and the other will be a false image (the one seen by the non-dominant eye). The problem is that it is sometimes difficult the determine which image is which, especially under stress. Because of this difficulty shooters resort to closing or squinting their non-dominant eye to eliminate or weaken the false image.

On the other hand, target focus with both eyes open is completely natural. We have all been doing it since about age 2 and we have reenforced it millions of times. Every time we point at something or throw a ball or even drive a car for that matter we reenforce target focus. Yes we have the same issue of binocular vision but when target focus is used we now see two sets of fuzzy sights. Again one set will be a true image and one will be a false image. The difference is it is natural and easy to line our dominant eye with the true image of those sights. Just like pointing our finger.

I'm not about to say that target focus is right and front sight focus is wrong. They can both be right. Using front sight focus with one eye, front sight focus with both eyes, or target focus with both eyes is less of an issue than the concentration on that sight picture. fuzzy or not. I even know of several top level shooters that use an intermediate distance focus (focus on nothing) but concentrate on that sight picture and shoot extremely well.

Which ever you decide is right for you, concentrate on the sight picture, see what you need to see and practice.

Dwight

DING! thats my exact problem, haha. ive since started taping the left eye of my shooting glasses and it seems to help with the 2nd fuzzy target problem. it seems from reading that the "proper" way to do it is to "see the sights", and "watch the front sight", etc etc. Thats what im trying to do, but i can see where target focus could work too> im already looking at the target when i draw, my hands come up to where im looking....which is the A-zone...which is good, haha. The only problem with this is that i actually see two fuzzy guns and two sets of fuzzy sights at the end of my arms. its not as bad and i can tell which one is the proper one, but they are still there.

I think im gonna stick to the tape for now, it seems to help and the last few days of dryfire, ive actually forgotten about this little "problem" and been able to focus more on the draw, fundamentals, etc. I think that is a step in the right direction!

[sniperfrog]

I use a target focus and have for a long time. I started doing this in the military when I went to John Shaws/Mid South the first time. I see a double image when I focus on the front site and it both slows me down and makes me less accurate. I also will lose the target when shooting at a row of headplates or a shoot/no shoot scenario making it difficult for me to know where to aim. Tape is a no-go for me because I train for combat shooting/self defense. Focusing on the target, I can still see my sights well enough to line them up properly even though there just a little blurry.

I thought I was the only guy that did this since all everyone preaches is "front sight, front sight". When I tell people I focus on the target they look at me like I have leprosy.

Edited January 22, 2010 by sniperfrog

[Aircooled6racer]

Hello: Try to use both eyes open and a target focus. For the long tuff shots I slightly close my non dominant eye to get a sharper focus on the sight and target. Dry fire will help alot with using boh eyes open. Shooting an Open pistol has helped me with using both eyes open. The bonus is with transitions with both eyes open you get twice the viewing area. Thanks, Eric

[bkeeler]

The more I shoot the more I am becoming a target focuser. I am finding that I can still see the relationship of the sights (front and rear) on the target with a target focus. I can see if the sights are lined up and if they aren't my mind/body compensate for that very quickly and with out thought. I have battled this back and forth with myself (sight focus vs target focus) I believe with the target focus it allows me to be more open with my vision as if I have a sight focus where I am seeing the serrations in the front blade my vision seems to be more tunneled . I am finding what I need to see to make the shot no less no more! I am also finding that if I miss a shot it is not because the sights weren't lined up or I wasn't focusing on the front sight,it's because my attention goes to the next shot instead of staying with the current shot.(I start moving my eyes/the gun before I completed the shot) I found this out last weekend I have not been staying with the shot I started snapping my eyes and moving the gun before I even pulled the trigger

I did work this out in dry fire!

Edited January 22, 2010 by bkeeler

[spanky]

Tagged

[whatsupglock]

I have struggled with this as well. I don't really have a dominant eye either. I "see" just as well with my left as I do my right. So I decided to make my right eye dominant. I contemplated the tape on the glasses thing and the vaseline on the lenses thing, but what it came down to is I wasn't really comfortable puting anything on my $600 prescription Oakleys. So here's what I did...I worked on eye dominance exercises.

The farther an object is from your eyes, the easier it is to focus on that object. Hence the longer the sight radius, the crisper the sight picture. While I was at work I would take a regular bic pen and hold my arm out. I would position the pen with the tip of the pen as far out as possible but angled upward to simulate the front post of a front sight. Initially I would look at a sign/poster/door knob, whatever, with both eyes open. I would then line the ink pen up between my eyes and the object I was looking at. Once aligned, I would shift my focus to the tip of the pen. At this time I would see two signs/poster/door knobs. Now with my index finger on my other hand, I would hold my index finger out straight, parallel with my eyebrow. I would then lower my finger over my left eye, non dominant eye, until one of the signs/posters/door knobs goes away. Try it. It works. I did this over, and over, and over until I could eventually train my eyes and my brain to ignore the other image, ie sign/poster/or door knob. Every once in a while the second image creeps back in, but with a little practice it goes away again. This is a great little exercise to do during the day. And it doesn't draw a lot of attention to yourself. Eventually you will be able to look at an object, line up your sights, and focus/see one target and one sight. There will always be two, but your brain will learn to ignore the other image.

Here's another tip. I think a lot of people are trying to focus both eyes on the front sight. There is a difference between seeing a sight picture, and looking at the front sight. If you look at the front sight with both eyes, you are going to be in a world of hurt. You need to learn to look through the sight with your dominant eye. Again, see through the sight with your dominant eye. Ignor the other eye. Line the sights up between the target and your dominant eye ball. See past the sight, look at the target with your dominant eye. Now shift your focus of the dominant eye to the front sight and see the front sight and a single target. If you practice the drill above, you will be able to do this.

Keep this in mind too. Trust yourself. When you eat, you don't look at your plate, then shift your eyes to the spoon, then watch the spoon go to the plate, scoop the food, watch the spoon come to your mouth, watch the spoon enter your mouth, think ok lips squeegy the food off the spoon, watch the spoon come out of your mouth, watch the spoon go back to the plate, watch the spoon scoop food, etc... When you eat you look at your surroundings and your eyes, mouth, hand, and brain all know where everything is in reference to each other because you "see" it. You don't have to "look" at it to execute every movement. Shooting is exactly like eating. Know where the target is (the plate). See the target (plate). Hold the gun in your hand (spoon) and move it to the target (plate). If you are looking at the target, your brain knows where to put your hand to line the gun up between your dominant eye and the target. This is why eye dominance is so important. If you are trying to use both eyes the brain and hand get confused. Line the gun up with your dominant eye and see through the gun and look at the target. Now when you shift the focus back to the sights everything is on track. This is all natural point of aim stuff. It works. To test yourself, try to eat something with your eyes closed. You can do it. Try the same thing with your gun. Line yourself up with a target. Close your eyes. Now bring your gun up with your eyes closed, dry fire it and open your eyes. Where is the gun pointing. If you think about it like eating, your sights will be right on target. This works strong hand, weak hand, or two hand grip. Practice, practice, practice.

I have struggled with this greatly, and having discovered the things I've shared in this really loooong post have helped me improve drastically. Good luck.

[JxMAN25]

i also shoot with both eyes open.

[t0066jh]

Thanks for all of the discussion.

I was squinting and one eye shooting to see the front sight. Now I've got new shooting glasses. Left eye(dominant) focused on front sight, right eye on infinity, shooting right handed. I just spent 30 minutes dry firing to get the eyes trained to shoot both eyes open. It's working so far. The more I performed the draw to a sight picture the better it got. The right eye sees the target and the gun and front sight pops up between me and the target....BOOM. This is going to work..........more daily dry fire to make it natural.

Thanks again

Joe

[GregJ]

I tried the tape trick on lens of my weak eye (left eye) this weekend at a practice match. WOW, what a difference !! I'm 54 and new to this game, I wear progressive bifocals normally, but had a set of shooting glasses made a couple of years ago when I decided to start shooting competitively. My shooting glasses left eye Rx is single vision for distance, and the right eye is single Rx for near, approx where the front sight would be. These have been great, but the stress of shooting in a match always made it difficult to focus on the front sight like I know I should. The scotch tape allowed me to find the front sight quicker and in sharper focus, and to shoot quicker and more accurate. I felt like I was 'shooting the dot' for once. I'll be keeping a roll of scotch tape in my bag from now on.

[Norther]

Glad I found this thread. I shoot both eyes open, target focus. This is the first place I found other shooters saying it might actually work. I mean, it works for me at my level, but I want it to work at a far higher level, if you know what I mean. The double image is so strong with fsight focus, and other problems like seeing the side of the front sight with the left eye, that I'm not sure I could switch at all. I've been trying to decide if it's worth the months of work (and lousy scores in the meantime) I think it would take to switch to front sight focus.

[DoubleA]

I have been mentally battling it out with this subject over the last 3 or 4 years and have gone back and forth multiple times trying to A- find the correct answer and B- duplicate the way that I saw when I shot the best stages of my life. Here is where I am at now:

On the subject of eye dominance, I believe that I need to periodically train my right eye to be dominant by method of dryfiring and shooting with the left eye taped. Once I have done that for a length of time I can start shooting with both eyes cleared and not be confused by the double image. My left eye is much stronger than my right so it starts trying to creep the double image in after a while, but being aware of this tendency now let's me know when it is time to train it back. When both eyes are open, everything is so much clearer and allows what I have come to believe is the proper sight picture, for me anyway.

On the subject of sight picture, I cannot help but relate this to what you see in first person shooter games as that is what it looked like when Ive shot "in the zone".

Imagine you are standing in front of a white wall and not looking at anything in particular, eyes just naturally relaxed and stationary. Imagine there is a laser that is an indicator of center axis of your vision. Then you pull up the gun to the laser and you bring it into focus seeing everything, the sights, the gun, and your hands. You are not staring at the gun or the front sight, but it is however dominating your attention. Everywhere the laser(center of your vision) goes, the gun goes. When you fire the gun you are able to see everything because you do not have your vision set to a specific distance and on a specific spot on the gun. You see it all with perifrials even though it is right in the middle of your vision. Your attention is on the sights while the laser is resting over the top of them. Now imagine an image of a target array is projected on the wall. Your vision and sight attention stay the same and you are seeing everything and focusing mostly with your attention. This for me creates the correct sight "picture" with less association with depth and has given me the best results at every distance. When you tape one eye up it mimics this, but you lose some awareness of when youre trying to focus too hard or not enough. Also, when I make this sight picture correctly and then start moving my vision and gun around together it creates the "floating" effect described in Brian's book. Another reference that got me to try to see this way is from WWII fighter pilots. The guys that saw the enemy planes first and were noted to have amazing locating skills did so by looking for them with their perifrials and not trying to stare directly at them.

This I think best describes what I saw "in the zone" as when I look back there was never any reference to depth, just a picture while the gun was firing. The challenge in this, I believe, is seeing specific things in your vision without forming a hard focus on them individually since that is what comes naturally.

I may be wrong with all of this, but it is the conclusion I have come to thus far and is subject to change with each trip I take to the range.

Edited November 8, 2011 by DoubleA