diehli Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 No real specifics on how the gun list will be determined, but it looks like we're getting one with the new rules. I hope that Amidon sees fit to put the XD on there. Also interesting to note that DA/SA Prod. guns are no longer required to be fired from the DA mode for the first shot. I'd want a little more clarification on this, but it looks like a C&L USP or other such gun that is not single-action only can be used. I wonder if a safety-less SiG could be, too. Equipment position follows the more liberal new IPSC position delineated-- slightly more forward. Good stuff. The 10-round rule for Limited-10 and Production appears to have been changed, also. Looks like "10 in mag after start signal" is the new wording. That means those using full-cap mags with 11 in 'em to LAMR won't be relegated to Open. Again, good stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Gorilla, If I read the minutes correctly, the USPSA is also dropping "the fit the box" requirement and is instead designating a maximum barrel length of 5.5" for pistols and 8.5" for revolvers in US Production Division. I presume the former is to continue to allow the very popular (in the US) Glock 34 pistols to be legal. And it'll be interesting to see how many revolver shooters take up USPSA Production Division now. Given that there's a 10 round limit in PD in the US, the revised rules might encourage more 8 shot revolvers to participate, because they can shoot to full capacity (unlike in Revolver Standard Division). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcoliver Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Can you also use race rigs for Prod now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Bfore anyone starts reading too much into the new Production Division rules, let me clarify a couple of things. All the equipment rules remained as they were, no "race rigs". The pistol must still be a double action pistol on the first shot, however we are allowing you to cock the hammer on the first shot if you wish. If you were shooting a standards at maybe fifty yards and you did not wish to take the first shot double action, you may now thumb cock the hammer for the first shot. Also the eight shot revolvers are now welcome in Production. The more generous forward point of the hip bone position for holsters and allied equipment, will also allow a couple of speed loaders to be carried in front of the holster. if the holster is pushed back to about where it is carried now.The XD remains legal if it is on the approved list, and I believe it will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 I guess I should also have said the cocking of the hammer, if you wish, takes place after the start signal. In other words, after the buzzer you are on your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Custom Glock Racing Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Where can we read these new rules? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Matt, The BOD minutes are up on the USPSA members site and some of this was apparently discussed at the board meeting. If I read the minutes correctly, the bulk of the rule modifications are being discussed/voted on online in a continuation of the meeting. When the rules are finalized, they need to be published in Front Sight for a period of ninety days before going into effect ---- so the red rule book should be with us for a while longer, magazine lead times being what they are.... If you got a potential rules issue, you should probably be contacting your (and the other seven) area director(s).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 I'd like to thank USPSA for the changes to Production Division that allow the 8 shot Revolvers to be used in Production Division. Now I FINALLY can use my revolver to its FULL potential ( nothing more stupid than dumping a moonclip on the ground with unfired ammo still in it). I may regain faith in this organization yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehli Posted December 5, 2003 Author Share Posted December 5, 2003 Good catch, Vince. Thanks for clarifying, Gary. These look to be AWESOME moves that will allow more people to play. Jolly good, chaps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Mainus Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 As far as revolvers in production, Are there really that many people that have revolvers with 8.5" barrels. I use a 629 for deer hunting and that only has an 8" barrel. And that is a cannon. Am I reading the rule wrong or am I all wet on my thinking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 I am a bit confused. Does this mean I can start C&L in production now, or only that I can cock the gun as I draw? The rulebook appendix D says: Single action pistols are not allowed. First shot must be double action And the BOD minutes say: Moves to strike "first shot must be double action" in Production Appendix D (but leave "sinlge action pistols are not allowed) Is there a set of rules that says I have to decock or can I leave my CZ C&L after LAMR? It is not a single action pistol and unless I missed a rule (very possible) I am not requiered to decock it. Help me out. Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Tom surely you don't think we are speaking of only allowing 8.5 inch revolvers to shoot in Production Division do you? These are maximum barrel lengths. We felt if we set it that far out, that most people wouldn't say "But I want to shoot my XYZ pistol that has a 5 inch or 6 inch or 6.5 inch or 8 3/8 inch and you say it has to be 4 inch. So we thought we would give you the option to shoot your hand cannon if you can draw it out of a hip holster. As to the cocked and locked, no. As I posted previously, what you do after the buzzer is up to you. Prior to that though it is up to the RO and the equipment rules for the Division. I would think, based on a posting by Vince, that if you cock and lock and holster, you might find yourself in a division other than Production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Also you can not get to the "first shot" until after the start signal and still remain in the match in most circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPatterson Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 For Gary Stevens and any other lurking Area Director, Why do you think the XD should remain legal for USPSA production division when the manufacturer and BATFE both list the gun as single action. Hopefully it is not to keep Springfield sponsorship. It was bad enough that the barrel length was changed to 5.5" so the G34 would still be a production gun. How about changing the Revolver division back to as many as it will hold & make the 10mm(.40) the limit for major. Manufacturers made 8 rounders to satisfy American requests so lets give them the chances to make some new guns. Then USPSA Revolver shooters could compete against IPSC Revolver shooters on an equal basis. If the post was correct about listing the rules in Front Sight before they could become effective it would be nice to know what the rules are before the Nationals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chp5 Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Graywolf_69, Some thoughts: It was bad enough that the barrel length was changed to 5.5" so the G34 would still be a production gun. Why is that bad? The G34 is one of the most popular pistols in Prod Div. To disqualify its use would completely ignore the realities of the division and be bad for the shooters. Why do you think the XD should remain legal for USPSA production division when the manufacturer and BATFE both list the gun as single action. Hopefully it is not to keep Springfield sponsorship. I think IDPA agrees with your position. However, I agree with our Board. There is no advantage to shooting an XD over a Glock or any other competative production pistol with a decent trigger. IMHO, the XD trigger has a very long reset that is a disadvantage. It's a pistol that is appropriate in Prod Div. If you think shooting an XD in Prod is an advantage, then buy one and shoot it! Hopefully it is not to keep Springfield sponsorship. Again, even if true, why is that bad? The division, especially Prod Div, should be tailored to fit what the manufacturers make and meet the Prod criteria. Why should the Board NOT consider the realities of the firearms marketplace - especially for Prod Div? There's nothing wrong or underhanded in supporting manufacturers that support our sport. USPSA is a not-for-profit corp. However it is a business and there are both economic and business realities at work. If the Board ignores those realities, then they are not doing their job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 As to the XD, I can only speak for myself, but the deciding factor to me was the members who paid their hard earned money for a gun that was legal at that time. If we made a mistake in allowing the XD to begin with, the members who bought one should not have to pay for that mistake. One other area that was on my mind was "Is there a significant difference in that gun and others of similar design" I concluded, right or wrong, that there was not. What is a single action and what is a double action is not as clear today as it was 50 years ago. But the main issue was, I did not want our members to be hosed for a possible mistake they had nothing to do with. If you disagree, that is fine. I am comfortable with my decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Gary wrote : As to the cocked and locked, no. As I posted previously, what you do after the buzzer is up to you. Prior to that though it is up to the RO and the equipment rules for the Division. I would think, based on a posting by Vince, that if you cock and lock and holster, you might find yourself in a division other than Production. I couldn't spot the Vince posting you are refering to. My confusion persists and it has to do with the rules, because I can not find any rule in the rule book that says you have to decock for Production. All it says (as far as I can tell) is that the first shot must be double, and no SA guns allowed. Also according to 8.1.2.3 C&L is a valid condition for a selective action, and the first shot must be DA rule is about to go away. I am not trying to be a hardass, I am just curious of what rules apply where. I am new at all this and I am trying to make sure I understand the rules. So if I missed some rule, please let me know what prevents a USP or CZ from being C&L in production. Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Gary, Thanks for your hard work in the sport and trying to clarify some of the rules here on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 It is much like the fuss over the competitors loading with 11 rounds in their magazine. They did not comply with the requirements of the Division. Production does not allow single action guns. With selective actions you have a choice single action or double action. If you want to shoot it in Open, Limited, or L-10 then the single action side would be appropriate. If you want to shoot in Production you can not use the single action side, you must use the double action side, at least until the start signal when the new rule book is printed. The posting by Vince was about a question of a shooter in Limited having a 170 magazine on his belt "during the course of fire". Vince's opinion, was that the competitor had not complied with the Division requirements and would be moved to Open. I agree with this. Limited is "limited" to 140 mm magazines, the simple possession of a 170 mm on your belt during the course of fire is a violation IMO. My opinion, subject to someone else overruling it, is if you are in Production Division and you holster a C&L handgun you are no longer fufliling the requirements of Production and are moved to an appropriate Division other than Production. Other views may vary. I have sent an e-mail to JA to make sure we have clear language about this in the new book. I thought this was pretty simple, but maybe not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 No problem Jon. It is better we discuss it now than after the printing. As I have always said, constructive discussion is a good thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Gary, I too appreciate the hard work of all those involved. But as I read the rules, I don't see anything against C&L. If the spirit of the rules is that the gun should start decocked, that fine by me, but it should be made clear in the rules so there is no room for confusion. That was my whole point. Thank you for taking time to address this. Vlad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Playing Devils Advocate again, taken in context of what you are saying, what do you think it means when it says "Single Action's not allowed" in the Production Division requirements? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDave Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Isn't the intention for for the first shot of the course of fire to be double action? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Stevens Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 It did when created, and still is for a while. We felt that by allowing thel option of thumb cocking, after the start signal, was a reasonable choice. We want a place for DA type guns to play, but in the, oh God can I actually say it, "real" world an individual might just thumb cock his first shot for a tough or distant shot. You can still shoot it DA, but you have the option to cock if you wish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted December 5, 2003 Share Posted December 5, 2003 Actually it doesn't say "single action not allowed", it says "single action pistols not allowed". The difference is huge. By the logic of the first one you would only be allowed DOA guns, as single action would be not allowed on the first, second, or other shots. "single action pistols" however defines and excludes SAO weapons. It says nothing about the use of DA/SA weapons. At least that is common usage of action types (in my experience). The only thing forcing a decock and use of the DA was the phrase just struck from the rules. So to reply as the devils prosecutor, assuming that the rules will only be modified as described in the minutes, please tell me where it says I can't do that. Vlad PS: Please undestand that at this point I am only being a rules lawyer. I don't have an objection to being requiered to decock, I just think that if that is the case it should be made very clear in the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts