Where were the sandbaggers?

[pjb45]

Ok, I am a sandbagger I guess. My production % is 42 but I shot Nationals at 51%, and increase of 20% over my average. However, I shot a minimum number of classifiers to get classified. I spent no time practicing with the production gun until right before Nationals-a big thanks to Scott for getting my gun ready--. My last classifer was a 60%. So that is the real reason I am a C is because of no practice with a production gun. Am I really a C-- probably not. Am I a solid B - I think so.

Additionally, two years ago I shot SS Nationals with at a B level ~62% but I am classified as C. The Section Coordinator requested to be moved to B but to no avail. So I was a Sandbagger for SS. BTW: I got my B card recently. At A2, Angus is a legimate GM but as SS he is a M, I shot 88% of his score, does that make me A or M. Not hardly.

To me, classifiers are about draws and reloads. Since I do not practice reloads and draws that much, I will never advance via the classifier system. I do practice weak hand shooting, so I usually end up with a good percentage on those classifierss.

Matches are entirely different. Almost every stage allows for a reload to be accomplised while moving. Additionally, a lot a stages start without the gun in the holster.

The claissification system is great for what it does: measure the fundamentals of fast accurate shooting in a controlled manner. Matches are so much different in what can achieve great results. Most classifiers are really shot with one approach but at Nationals you can see the GMs talking about all the different ways to shoot a stage and then settle on one or two ways.

Matches are where the rubber meets the road so to speak. When I make the top 3-5 in my class at a match, then I think I am really the next level up.

Edited December 3, 2009 by pjb45

[CocoBolo]

Well I must have been in a whole squad of Grandbaggers they were all "B" and I'm a "C" and we all got beat by the "D's", go figure. I know I came down with a bad case of PA, performance anxiety, and Color blindness, keep shooting the wrong color target.

While I'm still sort of a newbie what I see is that most of the time a good shooter will get to a classifer and "TRY" and when they try they tank it. I have stopped trying in classifier stages just shoot in my comfort zone and the scores just keep getting better. I just need to stop trying in the rest of the match.

At Area 8, I thought that I saw a bunch of sandbaggers but the case is that they don't shoot much in the winter other than a few million rounds in air soft then they come out and shoot like the japanese steel team. In the south we shoot all year and don't even have a basement to shoot air soft in, which makes our classification a little more current.

[bbbean]

When very few shooters in the class can shoot a score inside their classification percentage, what does that mean to you?[/color]

It means the classifier system is based on best results, not average results. Maybe it means there are grandbaggers, or that the system is designed to move shooters in one direction only - up.

But again, I'm not concerned with how the mean, mode, median, or any other measure of typical X class shooter did. I'm interested in the top of each class. If someone worked the system so they could finish as the 7th place C shooter instead of the 15th place B shooter, it's no great skin off my back.

And I'm pretty leery of drawing too much of a conclusion based on one stage, but here's the results from the stage you cited:

gm 100

gm 91.49

gm 89.87

M 90.75

M 85.88

M 84.12

A 75.72

A 75.41

A 72.56

B 81.05

B 71.28

B 70.82

C 58.26

C 56.72

C 56.68

D 48.63

D 47.58

D 13.03

When you consider that shooters shot this one stage over the course of 3 days with changing weather conditions, different times of day, in different squads and possibly with different ROs, and the fact that the top GM burned the place down, these still don't look too out of line with the finish I'd expect. If the A and B shooters consistently shot this close, you might wonder a bit, but you'd need more data to draw a strong conclusion. The top B & D shooters may have just been having good days.

Edited December 3, 2009 by bbbean

[Nik Habicht]

There's another disconnect in looking at stage results vs. match results: If I go to the Nationals and shoot every stage at 55%, it looks like I'm over classified with a B card. Total all of those finishes up however, and I predict that consistency will move me over 60% for the match.....

Ya'll are talking about apples and oranges.

The shooters who are winning their class at Nationals are on the verge of getting promoted to the next class.

Every class at Nationals will contain a certain number of shooters who will not be able to maintain the consistency required to actually finish the match with a score that is equivalent to their classification. Lots of possible reasons from overclassification, to gun breakage, injury, lack of stamina, getting screwed by the weather/amount of daylight/environmental concerns/circadian rhythms on the high point stages, and probably a host of others I can't think of....

There are also always going to be those shooters who will defy the classification system by moving from C to M or GM in a year or so of intense work --- during that time period their classification simply can't keep pace with their performance.....

[Loves2Shoot]

If all you care about is what percent the top shooter in the class scored then you say the represents an accurate percentage in their class via classification and the results "should be expected" that is contrary to the data. It shows it should "not be expected" and that if you finish at the top of your class (as Paul stated) your classification has does not represent you skill level and it is time for you to move up to be grouped with like skilled shooters.

I was illustrating (using the data you presented) that to find the sandbaggers, just look at the top, and they are performing 10% or more above the standard of the shooters in that class and this has been common for as long as I have been shooting.

Since you stated you don't care about that data, then you will see what you see, but it may not mean what you think it means.

[Loves2Shoot]

There's another disconnect in looking at stage results vs. match results: If I go to the Nationals and shoot every stage at 55%, it looks like I'm over classified with a B card. Total all of those finishes up however, and I predict that consistency will move me over 60% for the match.....

Ya'll are talking about apples and oranges.

The shooters who are winning their class at Nationals are on the verge of getting promoted to the next class.

Every class at Nationals will contain a certain number of shooters who will not be able to maintain the consistency required to actually finish the match with a score that is equivalent to their classification. Lots of possible reasons from overclassification, to gun breakage, injury, lack of stamina, getting screwed by the weather/amount of daylight/environmental concerns/circadian rhythms on the high point stages, and probably a host of others I can't think of....

There are also always going to be those shooters who will defy the classification system by moving from C to M or GM in a year or so of intense work --- during that time period their classification simply can't keep pace with their performance.....

Correct, but if you are the winner of a class, you are shooting better than most of the shooters in the next class generally.

If you shoot every stage at 50% I would guess you to be more like 7-10% higher in overall finish because the match winner won't win all the stages.

[Chills1994]

I think BBBean and a few other posters in this thread are of the same mindset I was starting about 2 years ago. That same mindset lasted with me up until about this summer.

I really used to get wrapped around an axle about the s-word about 4 to 5 years ago when I started shooting IDPA.

I did all the statistical analyses, ran ANOVA's, calculated means and standard deviations... and you know what... it was all just a big waste of time.

I would have been better off dry firing during that time instead.

This whole conversation only serves as a distraction from making you, and just you a better shooter.

In the end, that's really all you have control over.... your game... no one else's .

As far as the prize table goes and the sandbaggers stealing a prize....really? Seriously? Is anybody really making any money going to these matches... are they coming out ahead when they get ______ prize off the prize table?

If you're worried about the prize table so much, then go shoot registered trap or skeet. Come here to Sparta, IL next summer and shoot in the ATA's Grand, and maybe you will walk away with a $13,000 Kohler or Perazzi shotgun.

Or go pick up bowling or bass fishing.

The money/prizes ain't in USPSA.

Edited December 3, 2009 by Chills1994

[bbbean]

I think BBBean and a few other posters in this thread are of the same mindset I was starting about 2 years ago. That same mindset lasted with me up until about this summer.

I really used to get wrapped around an axle about the s-word about 4 to 5 years ago when I started shooting IDPA.

I like numbers. I like debate. That's why I spent so much of my academic career in research design and data analysis. The conversation is an enjoyable distraction for me. Its not what I think about when I pick up a gun.

No axle-wrapping here.

[Loves2Shoot]

My last post in the thread, but the reason I posted here was because I have have seen too many friends (myself included when I started) let the whole classification thing get in their head and hold them back. If/when you come to the conclusion that Chills did, that distraction/pressure is gone and you can focus on the shooting.

[gmantwo]

It means the classifier system is based on best results, not average results.

+10, Best statement I've seen concerning the classification system!

[cas]

Or go pick up bowling or bass fishing.

Bowling has sandbaggers too. Sometimes called "maintenance bowlers", bowling just good enough to beat your opponents without unnecessarily raising your average and lowering your handicap.

[Chills1994]

^^^ My point was that if you are that worried about making money or getting prizes from some competition then you would be so far better off picking up bowling or competitive bass fishing instead. You're not gonna get rich shooting USPSA

There are probably sandbaggers in the professional tiddley winks circuit too. If one person can come out ahead in some form of competition, you can rest assured that somebody else will find a way to skirt the rules or the spirit of the competition in order to "win" or to make themselves look better. Ego, really, truly, is an amazing thing.

Edited December 22, 2009 by Chills1994

[KGentry]

All of the Sand/Grand bagging does not matter if access to the prize table is done by finishing order per Division regardless of Classification. If you win your Class then you get a little trophy, ribbon, Pat on the back, kick in the nuts or whatever. But prize table access should only be done by finishing order. I don't see any better motivator on getting better than that.

The American Competition Mentality of “If I can’t win, I don’t want to play” kills me. This is why we have six different divisions (Open, Limited, Limited-10, Production, Single Stack, and Revolver) and then seven classifications within each division (GM, M, A, B, C, D, and U). Not to mention the sub classes within each one of those Divisions (Law, Lady, Senior, Super Senior, Junior, etc). All of these divisions, classes and categories are nothing more than something to appease the “If I can’t win, I don’t want to play” factor.

Just go shoot and have fun while doing it. Does it really have to be more complicated than that?

I agree with this assesment of our prize system. It should be by order of finish. Our entire American culture is based on rewarding the winners and it should not be tread upon in my view. This motivates people into doing better and creates great competition! If you have a match were the prize table is random drawing then the shooters that worked hard and made the win happen are not rewared based on performance. If you are there just for the prize table in USPSA handgun then you should really switch over to 3 gun hahahaha their prize tables have far more top prizes on them!!

The classification system works in my view although anything can be improved upon! We will always have compeititors that feel they need to "hack" the system in order to look better or to receive a better prize at the larger matches. Peer pressure can go along way in correcting this. Just shoot, have a good time and keep working hard.

Just my 2cents

Edited December 27, 2009 by KGentry

[sslav]

All of the Sand/Grand bagging does not matter if access to the prize table is done by finishing order per Division regardless of Classification. If you win your Class then you get a little trophy, ribbon, Pat on the back, kick in the nuts or whatever. But prize table access should only be done by finishing order. I don't see any better motivator on getting better than that.

The American Competition Mentality of “If I can’t win, I don’t want to play” kills me. This is why we have six different divisions (Open, Limited, Limited-10, Production, Single Stack, and Revolver) and then seven classifications within each division (GM, M, A, B, C, D, and U).

I agree with this assesment of our prize system. It should be by order of finish. Our entire American culture is based on rewarding the winners and it should not be tread upon in my view. This motivates people into doing better and creates great competition!

I am all for handling the prize table in the order of finish. As long as match fees are set at a level to cover match costs only and no part of fees goes to the prize table. Prize table gets sponsor donated prizes only. Set it up that way and I am there. Because if I can's win I will still gladly play and pay my own way to do so. But I fail to see how taxing the many who have no chance to place high enough to subsidize prizes for the few who are guaranteed to place high enough can even remotely be sold as "The American Way".

[Flyin40]

All of the Sand/Grand bagging does not matter if access to the prize table is done by finishing order per Division regardless of Classification. If you win your Class then you get a little trophy, ribbon, Pat on the back, kick in the nuts or whatever. But prize table access should only be done by finishing order. I don't see any better motivator on getting better than that.

The American Competition Mentality of “If I can’t win, I don’t want to play” kills me. This is why we have six different divisions (Open, Limited, Limited-10, Production, Single Stack, and Revolver) and then seven classifications within each division (GM, M, A, B, C, D, and U).

I agree with this assesment of our prize system. It should be by order of finish. Our entire American culture is based on rewarding the winners and it should not be tread upon in my view. This motivates people into doing better and creates great competition!

I am all for handling the prize table in the order of finish. As long as match fees are set at a level to cover match costs only and no part of fees goes to the prize table. Prize table gets sponsor donated prizes only. Set it up that way and I am there. Because if I can's win I will still gladly play and pay my own way to do so. But I fail to see how taxing the many who have no chance to place high enough to subsidize prizes for the few who are guaranteed to place high enough can even remotely be sold as "The American Way".

Its very simple, put in the work it takes to guarantee a prize. I don't agree with awarding mediocricy. Some of these guys that are guaranteed to win put in 50hrs of practice or even 100hrs of practice for every 1hr someone else may put in and that is why they are guaranteed to win or finish high. The guy that only puts in very little work may be happy with that or maybe because of life circumstances(work, family or whatever) they can't put that time in. I have the same respect for either shooter.

Your business makes $100,000 a yr and the guy next to you makes $500,000 a yr. He is at work ealier, stays later, open on weekends and holiday when your not. He just flat out works harder and it pays off. Should you now get $500,000 just because you have a business and showed up?? That is all thats meant by the American way. You get what you put into it and if your not happy with what you have or where your at you work harder to get it.

Flyin

[sslav]

Its very simple, put in the work it takes to guarantee a prize.

Actually it is even simpler than that. I do not shoot for prizes, I shoot for fun. The two or three major matches that I attend each year either have no prize table or award prizes through random drawing. That is good enough for me. You want to subsidize someone's prize, all power to you. I would rather spend the money and time to practice or shoot a local match. Simple enough?

[Flyin40]

Its very simple, put in the work it takes to guarantee a prize.

Actually it is even simpler than that. I do not shoot for prizes, I shoot for fun. The two or three major matches that I attend each year either have no prize table or award prizes through random drawing. That is good enough for me. You want to subsidize someone's prize, all power to you. I would rather spend the money and time to practice or shoot a local match. Simple enough?

I'm same as you, just getting out there runnin and gunning and getting to BS with friends and meet new people is enough reward to me. Anything else is just a bonus.

The main view I have is that the RO's should have prize drawings as a reward for all the work they put in to allow the shooters to come and have fun. Other than that I wouldn't have a problem with Trophy/Plaque only based on finish for all matches.

Flyin

[ima45dv8]

We've now managed to turn this into yet another prize-table-distribution thread, and there are so many lonely ones already sitting in a locked state just dying to be read.

Closed