Starting empty chamber (Israeli style)

[gringop]

I had a student ask me about this and I figured I would get some input from others on the forum.

Let me say that I think carrying and competing this way is goofy but I hope the student will come to understand this once he starts comparing times.

Has anyone see this in matches and is my answer below correct?

Thanks, Gringop

The student's question.

"Someone always carries w/ empty chamber and hence would like to drill the "draw and rack slide"

behavior, on each draw, during the match.

This seems to run afoul of the rules as I read them, and I'd guess you'd get a procedural on this.

Does anyone do this? (i.e. draw w/ an empty chamber consistently and intentionally in matches)"

My answer.

"I have seen this at club matches and the shooter did not get any penalties.

If they were shooting CDP, they would start with 8 rounds in the mag in the gun, and have 7 rounds in their spare mags on their belt.

If they were shooting SSP or ESP, they would start with 11 rounds in the mag in the gun and 10 rounds in their spare mags.

Since drawing and racking the slide is not giving the shooter a competitive advantage, it would not be cheating as long as they did it the same on every stage. Reminding the SO that you are using 7 round mags (except the first one) should keep him from getting confused and giving you a PE."

[GmanCdp]

Rulebook states division capicity "PLUS ONE "in the chamber..i think the intent was to have a weapon ready to fire at the draw..some COF's will start with an empty gun with the max loaded rounds in the mag OR the mag may be down loaded at the start...I don't think your student would be able to shoot a state match at all starting that way...

Edited October 28, 2009 by GmanCdp

[Steve J]

C 15. Pistols must start from the mechanical condition of readiness appropriate to their design and be loaded to division capacity (See Appendix One – Equipment, Firearms for division capacity explanation). High capacity magazines must be loaded to full division capacity of the division the contestant is shooting in.

Handguns permitted for use in this division must:

G. Be loaded to the division capacity of ten (10) rounds in the magazine plus one (1) round in the chamber.

That is for SSP and ESP. CDP is obviously 8+1. A competitor must comply with this rule or receive one procedural per string of fire. Whether it is a local match or not, matters not if it is an IDPA match.

[Steve Koski]

We see this every so often at local matches. We let the shooter start with an empty chamber and rack the first one in. No PE's.

I understand this is technically afoul of the rule book, but these are invariably new shooters/new CCW permit holders, and I'm not going to either:

A-- push them to carry a hot weapon when they're not comfortable with it

B-- penalize them repeatedly and turn it into a negative experience.

I think being hard nosed on this issue will result in either A or B above. Screw the rules in favor of being kind to new shooters. Nothing wrong with carrying empty chamber. I did it for several months when I first got my CCW.

Koski

Edited October 29, 2009 by Steve Koski

[Steve Koski]

Like Gman said, very doubful they could shoot a sanctioned match this way. As far as I know, this issue has never come up at a sanctioned match.

Gringop - At local matches we have the shooter load all mags to the same capacity. No "bonus round" in the first mag. It had never occured to me to do it the way you mentioned.

[Victor_R]

I dont know if this counts but at the WA state match we had to face with our back to the target at buzzer turn draw and load mag rake the slide and shoot the COF.

[Bones]

We see this every so often at local matches. We let the shooter start with an empty chamber and rack the first one in. No PE's.

I understand this is technically afoul of the rule book, but these are invariably new shooters/new CCW permit holders, and I'm not going to either:

A-- push them to carry a hot weapon when they're not comfortable with it

B-- penalize them repeatedly and turn it into a negative experience.

I think being hard nosed on this issue will result in either A or B above. Screw the rules in favor of being kind to new shooters. Nothing wrong with carrying empty chamber. I did it for several months when I first got my CCW.

Koski

Sounds like the genesis of KDPA.

Until then, the IDPA rulebook is clear.

Craig

Edited October 29, 2009 by Bones

[DUKE]

We see this every so often at local matches. We let the shooter start with an empty chamber and rack the first one in. No PE's.

I understand this is technically afoul of the rule book, but these are invariably new shooters/new CCW permit holders, and I'm not going to either:

A-- push them to carry a hot weapon when they're not comfortable with it

B-- penalize them repeatedly and turn it into a negative experience.

I think being hard nosed on this issue will result in either A or B above. Screw the rules in favor of being kind to new shooters. Nothing wrong with carrying empty chamber. I did it for several months when I first got my CCW.

Koski

Sounds like the genesis of KDPA.

Until then, the IDPA rulebook is clear.

+1 Why have a rule book.

Craig

[Steve J]

I dont know if this counts but at the WA state match we had to face with our back to the target at buzzer turn draw and load mag rake the slide and shoot the COF.

Victor, deviations in the start condition that are written into the COF are different. The COF can specify that shooters have to start with no round in the chamber or downloaded to 3, etc. But in the abscence of that specific guidance in the COF the rule book is clear. The start condition is division capacity magazine + one in the chamber without exception.

[Jim Watson]

Sign me up for the KDPA.

If somebody wants to use non-reg technique or gear to get started at the club level, I will allow it.

If he wants to work from Condition 3 because of cockedlockedphobia, military doctrine, or advertisements for The Israeli Method, fine.

If he wants to use a five shot revolver, I will not tell him he must find a sixshooter for SSR.

I will explain what adjustments he must make to get in a sanctioned match. Anybody unwilling to make the change is probably not going to compete at the state level anyhow.

[gringop]

Thanks for everyone who replied. I have much a better understanding of what to tell my student re. club and sanctioned matches.

That being said, I want to mention that ESP and SSP guns do not have to have 10+1 and CDP does not have to have 8+1.

I remember those arguments back when I started shooting IDPA with a Kimber Compact and later a full size with crappy old 7 round mags.

From the rule book;

Should division capacity not be achievable because of lower magazine

capacity, load to maximum mechanical capacity of magazine

plus one (1) round in the chamber. Competitors must use the

same capacity magazines through out the competition

(Example: if you start with a 9 round magazine, you must use

that capacity magazine throughout the match).

Thanks again, Gringop

[Chris Christian]

Regarding new shooters at a club level match using the Israili (Condition 3) rack the slide on the draw. I agree with Jim Watson (normally do) and suprisingly with Koski (seldom do). For a new shooter at the club level I would let them do it until... or if... they displayed unsafe behavior. I would also 'splain to them the drawbacks to it... but I would leave it up to the shooter... at least at that level. We were all newbies once... and generally continued on to become "not newbies" because we didn't encounter a Range Nazi who made our first IDPA experience an unpleasant one. I understand the need for the Rule Book, and I carry one in my shooting bag. But, as one who deals with a lot of new shooters from a SO position, I also understand that sometimes the rules could be bent a bit... at the club level... for the benefit of the shooters... and ultimately IDPA.

Chris Christian

[G-ManBart]

I think being hard nosed on this issue will result in either A or B above. Screw the rules in favor of being kind to new shooters.

This is a pretty good example of the sort of stuff that makes many folks have "issues" with IDPA. Oh, you're new, we'll toss the rules aside for you until you decide its convenient for you to follow them...or not. I ran into my buddy at the gun shop after he'd shot maybe his third or fourth match and he said "you know, shooting with those IDPA guys is like shooting with a bunch of whiny old nags. Nobody can decide what is or isn't allowed and they do nothing but bitch at one another the entire match". He stopped going.

There really shouldn't be a problem with politely telling a new shooter that there are certain rules that are followed and they will be expected to comply with them if they want to shoot matches. If they're afraid to stand in a box with a round in the chamber, while supervised by a range officer, while waiting to start the COF they don't need to be shooting in a match and they sure as hell shouldn't be walking around on the street with a gun, chamber empty or otherwise.

Nothing wrong with carrying empty chamber. I did it for several months when I first got my CCW.

Nothing wrong with it aside from being stupid Further edit: I wasn't saying that anybody in particular is stupid, just that IMHO it's almost always a bad idea.

I probably shouldn't have just fired off a comment like this without explaining it further. Since we try to stay away from self-defense topics I probably was a bit too conservative....my mistake, and I apologize. Short version is that there is a long list of reasons why empty chamber carry is a bad idea. I won't go into them here as that would cross the lines of what's allowed. The list of why empty chamber might be a good idea is very, very short. People bring up the Israeli technique and they generally don't understand why or how it has been employed. Unless you live in a virtual war zone with military checkpoints and suicide vest wearing bad guys, it probably isn't applicable to what you see on a daily basis.

Edit to add: almost forgot. I did video of a normal start and an empty chamber start just for comparison's sake...people were swearing up and down they could do empty chamber just as fast as loaded chamber....hogwash. I have not, and will not, practice the slightly different Israeli technique, but this is reasonably fast for actual aimed fire. They can be seen here:

Loaded start:

Empty chamber:

Edited October 31, 2009 by G-ManBart

[RobMoore]

A-- push them to carry a hot weapon when they're not comfortable with it

B-- penalize them repeatedly and turn it into a negative experience.

I think being hard nosed on this issue will result in either A or B above. Screw the rules in favor of being kind to new shooters. Nothing wrong with carrying empty chamber. I did it for several months when I first got my CCW.

Koski

I'm in agreement with Steve here. A shooter who plans on this technique of carry is giving themselves enough disadvantage that I don't think a +3 PE is necessary. Giving one doesn't help anyone. I generally like to follow the rulebook as it is written, but for local matches I think SOME variance should be forgiven in circumstances like this. This shooter can either be treated as a non-conformist who we wish to beat into submission, or we can treat him as one of us, a fellow stockholder in the future of our sport.

[Duane Thomas]

Does the Rule Book outlaw carrying chamber empty and racking the slide on the draw?

[Joe4d]

the rule book doesnt outlaw anything,

It is a collection of rules for a game, follow the rules or dont play, Enforce the rules as written or dont SO.

[Chris Christian]

Odd thought on this thread but, I see four posters (Moore, Koski, Watson, and myself) who would allow a new shooter to start condition three. Of the four I know that at least three have a Master classification in at least one gun division, and I believe at least three (don't know about Rob Moore) are also certified SOs. Is it possible that experienced upper level shooters are a bit more charitable to newbies? I know Bones is also a Master/SO, but he's not normally charitable regarding rules, so I'll just leave the question hanging.

Chris Christian

[RobMoore]

Chris,

Yes, I'm an SO.

Duane,

Does the Rule Book outlaw carrying chamber empty and racking the slide on the draw?

The rule book does cover this, although its spread out over a couple different places. It says unless otherwise specified by the COF, the gun must start loaded to division capacity. Division Capacity for all semi-auto divisions is defined as either 8 or 10 in the magazine +1 in the chamber.

Edited October 31, 2009 by RobMoore

[Duane Thomas]

Actually I knew that. I was in Socratic mode. Obviously starting chamber empty, unless specified by the CoF, violates the rules.

The question of how to treat newbies re following all the rules is one that comes up frequently, and I don't know that we'll ever reach a definitive answer. It seems to come down to "Cut them a litle slack, they're newbies," on the one hand versus "The rules need to be followed, you're not doing them a favor by letting them not follow the rules," on the other. Really, I can see the merit in both arguments. Personally, my own inclination would be to split the difference. If someone shows up with a holster or a gun that's not in compliance, let them shoot but tell them what the problem is and that before the next match they need to get legal equipment. Same thing with the matter under discussion here. I have to admit the whole "wanting to start every stage at a match without a round in the chamber" thing is a new one on me. I've been shooting IDPA since 1997 and I've never seen or even heard of anyone wanting to do that.

My own attitude has always been that, for anyone so uncomfortable with the concept of carrying an auto pistol they can't understand that having a round in the chamber is perfectly safe, we have a solution for you: it's called the double action revolver. Just don't carry an auto in such a condition it absolutely requires two hands to bring it into play. The term "handgun" is actually a contraction of the term "one hand gun" and refers to the fact that, compared to a long gun (rifle or shotgun) that requires two hands to operate efficiently, the handgun may be brought into play with only one hand if necessary. By deliberately carrying the gun in such a fashion it requires two hands to put into a firing condition before they can use it, a person has thrown away one of the great virtues of the handgun.

I never went through the "carry the gun chamber empty" phase myself, but I understand that some people do. Most of them will soon leave it behind, like training wheels on a bike. The sooner we can, gently and tactfully, get them through that phase, the better off they'll be.

Bart, I enjoyed your videos, though I do believe that your skill level understates the problem, i.e. most people carrying chamber empty will not be able to bring the gun into play nearly as fast and efficiently as you do.

[Chris Christian]

Just to clarify my own position (and one that I think, based upon previous posts, is shared by Watson, Moore and Koski) is that I'll cut a "newbie" slack as long as safety is not compromised. Once they are no longer a newbie... the Rule Book comes into play. They are required to be a member by their second match, and a Rule Book is included in the membership package. If they read it, fine. If not, they'll learn the Rule Book 3 seconds at a time. But, I'm not gonna Range Nazi someone at their first, or even second club match.

Chris Christian

[VegasOPM]

Here is a point, if the guy wants to handicap himself by starting chamber empty- what difference does it make if he gets the penalty? It sounds like he wants to "play as he lives", and isn't super worried about winning.

[Duane Thomas]

Because it's illegal.

[G-ManBart]

Bart, I enjoyed your videos, though I do believe that your skill level understates the problem, i.e. most people carrying chamber empty will not be able to bring the gun into play nearly as fast and efficiently as you do.

Thanks....just seeing the videos really leaves out a lot of context and I think you're right about skill levels making a difference. My main point to folks was almost exactly what you wrote above....you're probably doing something else really important with your support hand if you're trying to get your gun into play on the street. The fact that it's slower to rack a round was really secondary to that discussion. In that discussion I actually said that someone better than me would probably have a smaller difference between loaded and unloaded and someone less experienced would probably have a larger difference between unloaded and loaded. We do unloaded starts in quite a few stages (most of us do anyway) every year, so it's not an entirely new skill to us. Take the average guy/gal off the street and it isn't going to be pretty to watch. R,

[Steve Koski]

Here is a point, if the guy wants to handicap himself by starting chamber empty- what difference does it make if he gets the penalty? It sounds like he wants to "play as he lives", and isn't super worried about winning.

Vegas,

This is a different situation. Sometimes an experienced shooter wants to shoot a match his own way, the rules and his score be damned. Often the shooter will say "I'm going to shoot it like this, so you'll have to give me a procedural." Great. He gets what he wants from the match, and the rules are followed to a T.

Koski

[VegasOPM]

Because it's illegal.

Thus the procedural.