Starting empty chamber (Israeli style)

[Duane Thomas]

Yep.

[G-ManBart]

Because it's illegal.

Thus the procedural.

Shouldn't it really be a FTDR rather than a Procedural? By definition, Procedurals are "errors" in following the stage description/rules etc. In this case it's a blatant disregard for the rules/stage description, rather than an error. R,

[Duane Thomas]

I have always seen an FTDR as the penalty for cheating. I don't think that applies in this case.

[G-ManBart]

I have always seen an FTDR as the penalty for cheating. I don't think that applies in this case.

Yeah, it definitely is more common for cheating, but the way the rule reads makes me wonder:

PC 1. Failure To Do Right (FTDR):

"B. Is assessed for any attempt to circumvent or compromise

the spirit or rationale of any stage by the use of

inappropriate devices, equipment or techniques."

I think someone could make the argument that starting with an empty chamber, when the COF does not require it, could be seen as circumventing or compromising the rationale of the stage.

That might be on the extreme end, but I could see it happening. R,

[Flexmoney]

It might happen, but it doesn't make much sense.

What would a shooter be trying to circumvent?

They'd just be using a technique that allows them to test a method of carry on the clock.

Now, if they did it for managing rounds in the gun for a reload, that is another thing. But, I don't think that is what is being talked about here.

[Steve J]

I've seen it before, but in reverse. We had a new, first and last time shooter who was more than willing to take a 3 second procedural on every stage just to load his magazines up full (12 rds) like he carries them.

If the OP's shooter carries Israeli style and thinks the IDPA match is training, then he needs and deserves the 3 second procedural on every stage.

What we do is not training. Training happens elsewhere. We play a game using rules. Rules are meant to be followed. Procedural penalties encourage people to get with the program. It's good for the sport. It's good for the other competitors.

edited for spelling

Edited November 1, 2009 by Steve J

[Flexmoney]

If the OP's shooter carries Israeli style and thinks the IDPA match is training, then he needs and deserves the 3 second procedural on every stage.

What we do is not training. Training happens elsewhere. We play a game using rules. Rules are meant to be followed. Procedural penalties encourage people to get with the program. It's good for the sport. It's good for the other competitors.

The OP didn't suggest it was for training ??

[Steve J]

If the OP's shooter carries Israeli style and thinks the IDPA match is training, then he needs and deserves the 3 second procedural on every stage.

What we do is not training. Training happens elsewhere. We play a game using rules. Rules are meant to be followed. Procedural penalties encourage people to get with the program. It's good for the sport. It's good for the other competitors.

The OP didn't suggest it was for training ??

Training for real life carry is certainly what I get from the text in bold.

The student's question.

"Someone always carries w/ empty chamber and hence would like to drill the "draw and rack slide"

behavior, on each draw, during the match.

[Flexmoney]

I suppose you could chose to read it like that.

I don't see it as training.

Why can't it be using the match format as a testing bed for what may or may not work, on the clock and under a bit of pressure?

[Steve J]

IDPA matches as opposed to USPSA matches tend to attract more shooters that think they are getting or should be getting tactical training. It is not and shouldn't ever be billed as that.

As an IDPA MD, individually you may use my match as a testing bed for whatever you want as long as you follow the rules of the game. Any training I may offer at the match is to train you to be a better IDPA competitor. To that end, if someone wants to play by their own rules for their own reasons, I say no. That degrades the sport, the match and the other competitors' match experience, and is a PITA and unnecessary work for my Safety Officers.

[Flexmoney]

That is fine. That doesn't mean the rule (itself) is good. In this specific instance, one method is completely hobbled. There can be no test/comparison.

[Carlos]

We see this every so often at local matches. We let the shooter start with an empty chamber and rack the first one in. No PE's.

I understand this is technically afoul of the rule book, but these are invariably new shooters/new CCW permit holders, and I'm not going to either:

A-- push them to carry a hot weapon when they're not comfortable with it

B-- penalize them repeatedly and turn it into a negative experience.

I think being hard nosed on this issue will result in either A or B above. Screw the rules in favor of being kind to new shooters. Nothing wrong with carrying empty chamber. I did it for several months when I first got my CCW.

Koski

Good answer. I agree. Let's look at some facts:

1) Fact is, some folks (Israelis, certain CCW holders) practice this.

2) Fact is, there is NOTHING unsafe about allowing a competitor to start with an unloaded gun. and

3) Fact is, I cannot imagine any competitive advantage to letting a shooter do this they think they need to at a local match.

Why diminish the sport & run off a potential fee-paying shooter just because most of us (me included) always start with one in the chamber?

[Steve J]

We see this every so often at local matches. We let the shooter start with an empty chamber and rack the first one in. No PE's.

I understand this is technically afoul of the rule book, but these are invariably new shooters/new CCW permit holders, and I'm not going to either:

A-- push them to carry a hot weapon when they're not comfortable with it

B-- penalize them repeatedly and turn it into a negative experience.

I think being hard nosed on this issue will result in either A or B above. Screw the rules in favor of being kind to new shooters. Nothing wrong with carrying empty chamber. I did it for several months when I first got my CCW.

Koski

Good answer. I agree. Let's look at some facts:

1) Fact is, some folks (Israelis, certain CCW holders) practice this.

2) Fact is, there is NOTHING unsafe about allowing a competitor to start with an unloaded gun. and

3) Fact is, I cannot imagine any competitive advantage to letting a shooter do this they think they need to at a local match.

Why diminish the sport & run off a potential fee-paying shooter just because most of us (me included) always start with one in the chamber?

Because the rules we play by in the sport of IDPA require that we start with a round in the chamber and the magazine loaded to division capacity.

Now where did I put that beating a dead horse icon?

[Lee King]

3) Fact is, I cannot imagine any competitive advantage to letting a shooter do this they think they need to at a local match.

As a gamer I would take a look at a stage, look for a good spot to do a reload without retention, and download my magazines to take advantage. Except for that pesky little rule

[redmanfixit]

I remember the first matches I ever ran in USPSA were not the the first matches I'd ever been in. Still I remember being very nervous about the game because ...well it was new. I was glad I wasn't a total newbie. I had been shooting since I was very young, in the military and as an adult. Still, I shook some and I've seen others do it as well. Sweaty hands. Do you guys remember that? I still shoot with many of the people that were around when I first began, not only do they not cut me much slack now, they gleefully give me s**t all the time. I'm not new I wouldn't expect it to be otherwise. I was sure glad they cut me some in the first match or two, it mattered! I must add that no one ever allowed anything that would compromise safety. At the highest level the rules are to keep people from cheating. At the low levels this is about safety and learning how to play. I will always argue for loosening up a bit on a beginner. It's also wise to explain to them what compromise you're making and why it might not be OK routinely. In this way the RULES become a framework that allows for creativity instead of a bunch of restrictions to suck the fun out of it!

[Carlos]

We see this every so often at local matches. We let the shooter start with an empty chamber and rack the first one in. No PE's.

I understand this is technically afoul of the rule book, but these are invariably new shooters/new CCW permit holders, and I'm not going to either:

A-- push them to carry a hot weapon when they're not comfortable with it

B-- penalize them repeatedly and turn it into a negative experience.

I think being hard nosed on this issue will result in either A or B above. Screw the rules in favor of being kind to new shooters. Nothing wrong with carrying empty chamber. I did it for several months when I first got my CCW.

Koski

Good answer. I agree. Let's look at some facts:

1) Fact is, some folks (Israelis, certain CCW holders) practice this.

2) Fact is, there is NOTHING unsafe about allowing a competitor to start with an unloaded gun. and

3) Fact is, I cannot imagine any competitive advantage to letting a shooter do this they think they need to at a local match.

Why diminish the sport & run off a potential fee-paying shooter just because most of us (me included) always start with one in the chamber?

Because the rules we play by in the sport of IDPA require that we start with a round in the chamber and the magazine loaded to division capacity.

Now where did I put that beating a dead horse icon?

If I understand Koski here, he was talking about a CLUB match. If I understand your response, you are saying that, at a local club match, you would tell a new shooter wanting to use this technique: "I don't care if it is safe to shoot that way. Rules are rules. Do it MY way or pack your stuff & go home."

I guess we have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't think that is any way to treat a potential new competitor at a club match who wants to safely participate in IDPA, nor is it a way to grow the sport.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Carlos

[Steve J]

We see this every so often at local matches. We let the shooter start with an empty chamber and rack the first one in. No PE's.

I understand this is technically afoul of the rule book, but these are invariably new shooters/new CCW permit holders, and I'm not going to either:

A-- push them to carry a hot weapon when they're not comfortable with it

B-- penalize them repeatedly and turn it into a negative experience.

I think being hard nosed on this issue will result in either A or B above. Screw the rules in favor of being kind to new shooters. Nothing wrong with carrying empty chamber. I did it for several months when I first got my CCW.

Koski

Good answer. I agree. Let's look at some facts:

1) Fact is, some folks (Israelis, certain CCW holders) practice this.

2) Fact is, there is NOTHING unsafe about allowing a competitor to start with an unloaded gun. and

3) Fact is, I cannot imagine any competitive advantage to letting a shooter do this they think they need to at a local match.

Why diminish the sport & run off a potential fee-paying shooter just because most of us (me included) always start with one in the chamber?

Because the rules we play by in the sport of IDPA require that we start with a round in the chamber and the magazine loaded to division capacity.

Now where did I put that beating a dead horse icon?

If I understand Koski here, he was talking about a CLUB match. If I understand your response, you are saying that, at a local club match, you would tell a new shooter wanting to use this technique: "I don't care if it is safe to shoot that way. Rules are rules. Do it MY way or pack your stuff & go home."

I guess we have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't think that is any way to treat a potential new competitor at a club match who wants to safely participate in IDPA, nor is it a way to grow the sport.

Nope. I will not agree to disagree. Whether it is a club match matters not. The IDPA rule here is clear. Club matches if they are IDPA matches are still governed by IPDA rules. If I had a new shooter who insisted on starting with an empty chamber, he would get a procedural for each string of fire for violating the rule. He would not be told to leave. The procedural is an educational tool to encourage him to want to follow IDPA rules, to play the game by its rules, and to stop looking at it as a platform for his "tactical training" to which end he wants to do his own thing and ignore the rules.

The OP never indicated that it was a safety or fear issue on the part of his shooter. That was assumed in a later post to justify allowing someone to violate the rules wthout penalty.

[Flexmoney]

Looks like this one has been well covered from a variety of perspectives.

I am going to close it so that we don't continue to beat a dead horse (per the IDPA Forum rules of Sept. 2009)

If you have any new data to add, PM one of the IDPA moderators with a request to open it back up.

Thanks!

- Mod Squad