Larue, plates and poppers

[Blockhead]

We learned so many things this last weekend! I agree with Trapper that the same calibration procedure we use for a popper would work fine on these targets. Calibration with the match 9mm & ammo together with the railroad tie/bridge beam idea would have prevented the problem completely. Plus it would have provided the means to settle any challenges to the setting of the target. I'm hoping the BOD will act accordingly so we can continue to use the LaRue. Would it be a bad thing if they added the LaRue to Appendix B and required that the bottom 8 inches or so to be protected by wood or a splash guard?

I used 5 of the LaRues at our club match 2 weeks ago. I figured it would be a great opportunity to figure out how they work. We found out on the first shooter that we need to make sure they were set level. Once leveled on a solid base I knocked them down with M193 55 gr. at 425 yds.

With that experiance in mind, we made plywood base plates that could be leveled and staked down. MV had suggested something like this months ago but I didn't understand what he meant without playing with the targets. The plywood had holes drilled to receive the cast "cleats" on the bottom of the target base and drive box. I figured that if one did fail it would be easy to bring in a spare and replace it.

I thought we had it licked. It was obvious when our squad got to Stage #1 that we had not. I'm glad Carl got it fixed and that everyone who deserved a reshoot got the opportunity to do so.

For the record, LaRue Tactical shouldn't take any bad press over this incident. Their tagets reset every time without fail. Not even Daniel Horner had to wait for a reset (We worried about that). These are great targets. They offer the potential (with the improvements above) for same thing that Trapper & Kurt experianced in Europe without the wear & tear to reset and paint. I can't describe how much we appreciated the use of these great targets!!

[calishootr]

I RO'd a rifle stage of a 3-gun match back in 1993, all the targets were 8 and 12 inch plates set on existing silouettte stands for high power rifle, all the plates were on one berm at 250ish yrds???? the shooting positions to the different banks oftargets changed as did the distance, after i called the range clear, we had one kid on a scooter fly on down to the 90 yrd set, and we had another small group of kids that came out of a shack behind the berm when i called em on the radio, they ran out and set up the steel and painted for every shooter, then ran back tothe shack andradio'd me they were safe and on tothe next shooter, we paid em and fed em lunch....stage ran less than5 mins per shooter as i recall....

[RiggerJJ]

calling a Larue a popper opens a great can of worms; if a shooter is hitting the base or very low and NOT knocking it down, he has the option of challenging it, which shuts down that stage (and possibly other stages ajacent) until the RM goes down range WITH the shooter, and fires a 9mm minor pistol round at the target to see if it does in fact fall or not. (And what is the "scoring area" of the Larue?) If it doesn't the shooter reshoots the stage.

jj

[ken hebert]

As the USPSA rule reads now, the Larue is not treated like a popper. It is treated more like a plate.

There is no calibration shots to go with them.

I think the rule reads fine, as is. The match staff needs to get them set right, and then give a reshoot if they fail to go down with any hit.

Does anybody want them to be treated like poppers? If so, then the rule would need tweaking. I don't think having them treated like poppers is the standard to aspire to (popper calibration kinda sucks).

Yes, but with a caveat: Why? Beacuse its not a plate. Its a tall narrow piece of armored steel that is on a pivot point at its base and has an adjustment screw. Sounds kinda like a popper, dont it? Now if MV or the BOD can tweak the rulebook to allow LaRue's, surely it can be written in as to how they will be used, scored, set. It is a special target, so why cant it be treated as such?

Or... Take the LaRue mechanism and attach a real plate (start with a 10"...?) to it off of a tall, skinny, vertical arm. It would be the "correct" shape for distant rifle targets that we are used to already (such as MGM or R&R for example), and if engineered properly could be made to accept different diameter plates to accomidate changes in range and MOA to keep things fair for the limited crowd.

What say you?

[bigbrowndog]

JJ, it would be a small can,....... simply by using cover in front it would be doable. I already know of LaRue owners that have replaced the target with a plate on an arm, as Hebert recommends. There is no reason why an actual popper plate cannot be used instead.

As far as disputing a hit, that can occur with any LR target. Many Many times I've seen RO's not give shooters credit for a hit or give credit for not hitting it, which is better, getting the call right or keeping the match moving along???????

Also on the topic of calibrating, maybe the BOD should allow an accurate rifle in .223 to be used to calibrate, that would keep the long walk and possible range shut down from happening. it would only take a gun with calibrated ammo and a RM or MD that can hit the target from the actual shooting area. How hard would that be???????????????????? Why do we calibrate rifle targets with pistol ammo,.....................and don't say because its in the rules

Targets should be calibrated with the gun expected to engage the targets.

trapr

[Flexmoney]

Its a tall narrow piece of armored steel that is on a pivot point at its base and has an adjustment screw. Sounds kinda like a popper, dont it?

No, it absolutely does not.

I get what you are saying, but poppers are a specifically defined target.

What you described is a plate with a hinged base. Like a plate rack, for example.

...surely it can be written in as to how they will be used, scored, set.

It already has been written. They just got it wrongly executed at the match in question (proved out by the arb being won).

The rule is covers it. I don't think we need more rules...due to an execution issue?

I am pretty sure you don't want them treated like poppers. Popper calibration is a whole bunch of pain in the butt.

[Nik Habicht]

And the rules were written loosely enough to encourage target innovation......

....which is a good thing, but will also result in having to sort out these kind of problems to develop the best practices for new targets.....

I'm betting once upon a time we had poppers, prior to having calibration rules --- but I could be totally wrong about that.....

[RiggerJJ]

Just my point exactly, why use pistol to calibrate rifle or shotgun steel?

and my other point is, unless "the secret" is known about recessing a Larue into the ground or otherwise making the lower guard and lower part of the target unaccessable, the can of worms is opened and...

ultimately you want score it correctly with the right call, AND keep the stage moving (else it be thrown out for time constraints)

I like Ken's thoughts of changing the target face to more resemble a round plate on a stick, and different sizes for different distances...it could really make the Larue shine for our game.

jj

Edited October 27, 2009 by RiggerJJ

[ken hebert]

I am pretty sure you don't want them treated like poppers. Popper calibration is a whole bunch of pain in the butt.

Yes, I'm pretty sure I do want them calibrated. I'f I'm taking several days off work, paying $450+ for airfare, $100 a night hotel, $250 in match fees, several days worth of meals, and ammo to top it all off then yeah I'm pretty sure a little bit of time can be taken to calibrate. As it was, time before hand doing this would have eliminated the time that stages 1 and 2 were stopped so that they could be calibrated and the time spent running 2 1/2 squads through on a reshoot. It roughly ammounted to a 30+min stoppage of the match and then possibly up to another 2 hours added on to the end. I'm thinking that 2 guys, one with a rifle with 150pf ammo adn a good scope and another guy with a wrench and a 4 wheeler could knock it out in an hour...?

But, we arent going there with this conversation. As far as I'm concerned the "Larue issue" of the past weekend was a learning expierence for all of us, not a vehicle for us to point fingers in retrospect. My desire with this line of discussion is to find an equitable solution to make USPSA multigun run even more smoothly in the future thereby drawing more competitors (especially in limited!) and sponsors so as to enrich our match expierence and beef up the prize table.

Edited October 27, 2009 by ken hebert

[Charles Bond]

Just my point exactly, why use pistol to calibrate rifle or shotgun steel?

and my other point is, unless "the secret" is known about recessing a Larue into the ground or otherwise making the lower guard and lower part of the target unaccessable, the can of worms is opened and...

ultimately you want score it correctly with the right call, AND keep the stage moving (else it be thrown out for time constraints)

I like Ken's thoughts of changing the target face to more resemble a round plate on a stick, and different sizes for different distances...it could really make the Larue shine for our game.

jj

If you do not use a pistol to calibrate it, what would you use? Befoe you say a rifle at distance you had better think about what we have all seen at different times with RMs having a problem doing a popper calibration since like the shooters they run, their hits, if they have one, are not always perfect. If the 9mm minor is going to take it dwon, you can count on a non minor rifle doing the same.

And before we travel too far down the road of altering the target itself, look at the cost of LaRues. I would also "guess" that the entire mechanism is based on the weight of the target presented by the LaRue. So just becasuse we change the target at which we shoot, that does not make it more affordable and does not guarantee it would work.

The goal of using this target is to make setup more simple, remove the subjective nature of the "hit" calls, remove the subjective nature of how well the RO and shooter interact being a part of the match score, allowing multiple engagement of a single target on a stage since it does not remain in motion after it is successfully engaged, reduce reset by the shooters, reduce RO staff to run a stage and others my 11pm mind is not immediately associating with this target.

Folks if you do not like the target, no one is saying you have to use it but it is a tool in the box of tricks that can be offered. USPSA approved it as a target and I believe we may need to tweek some rules we did not think about when we approved it but in this game, like life, experience is the great teacher.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Charles Bond

[Flexmoney]

Ken,

You are in a different groove and I don't think we are connecting.

Yes, you want recourse for a steel target that doesn't fall when hit.

What I am saying is there is a better recourse than calling for "calibration". That recourse is already on the books. Any steel plate that is hit and doesn't work...the RO issues a reshoot (and fixes the target setup, as needed).

It might be a good idea to use a procedure similar to calibration when setting up and adjusting the target. But, that doesn't mean you you need to be cobbled to the whole "calibration" thing that goes with poppers.

Here is the idea...if the steel is working as it properly should, then it should fall to any hit. If not...reshoot.

The current rule supports that.

[bigbrowndog]

Charles, using a rifle from a rest with a scope should alleviate misses, if the MD or RM can't make the shot then find someone that can and delegate the chore. I also feel a minor caliber rifle in a pistol caliber would alleviate the "calibration hit factor" for pistol matches as well!! where is it written, or if it is?? Why is it it written that the shot must be fired with a pistol, you should use the most accurate implement available from the most accurate position that is feasible. Misses upon calibration should not be an issue.

As for the "cost" of LaRues they are normally loaned for use, so Buying them is not an issue.

As for calibration issues all together, I have a message to the RM of the ERC to find out how many if any, calls for calibration were made at the ERC. My guess is ZERO, because all steel FELL, not react, flash, or light up!!!

I'll post the answer when I get it.

trapr

[Charles Bond]

Trapr:

By my way of thinking if the 9mm minor pistol drops the target from 20 yards, it is calibrated. I am not opposed to the pistol caliber carbine to use for calibration but would you use that on a 3 or 400 yard target? Well maybe you would but remember that the rest of us are just mortals.

I believe we shot these targets at Benning in the tower rifle stage and if there were any problems no one advised me. Unlike traditional poppers, once these are calibrated, they tend to hold their settings.

And you are right, these targets, like many others are loaned to matches. Having said that I doubt LaRue would be anxioius to redesign their product to loan them to our matches since someone must already like their design or they would not be selling them.

Flex has it right about dealing with them as plates except for an RO to make that call with any accuracy the steel will have to be painted between each shooter to evidence a good hit that did not take down the target. At this point someone is going to tell me that the RO can "see" the hit go in. Well some can and some can't and I always get those who can't while the other guys get those who can. So if we are going to have to paint each distance steel target between each shooter anyway, we might as well use falling poppers which do require calibration and do not tend to hold it throughout the match.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Charles Bond

[bigbrowndog]

There were NO requests for calibration at ERC, every piece of steel except 2, fell freely without a hinge, and was reset manually. The 2 that were poppers fell properly throughout the match.......230 shooters plus RO's and NO problems with steel falling.

Charles, apparently you are not understanding what I am trying to get across regarding calibrating steel with a rifle.

Trapr

[Flexmoney]

There were NO requests for calibration at ERC, every piece of steel except 2, fell freely without a hinge,

There it's no big surprise that there weren't any calibrations called for on steel plates...as steel plates aren't "calibrated".

There are only 4 targets that are subject to calibration, they are all "poppers" (regular and classic, plus the mini versions of each).

===============

IPSC does use a rifle to calibrate poppers.

[bigbrowndog]

My point Flex, is that there were NO issues with steel period. Something that cannot be said for matches here in the states, be they plates poppers reactive steel or whatever.

Trapr

[Flexmoney]

That is cool. I'd like to hear more about what plates and setups they used (that would make a great new thread).

But, you aren't suggesting that USPSA outlaw any other forms of steel, right?

[bigbrowndog]

NO!!

trapr

[Charles Bond]

Charles, apparently you are not understanding what I am trying to get across regarding calibrating steel with a rifle.

Dude I usually read this late at night with failing eyesight and a dim mind. I do desire to understand how you feel any steel should be calibrated. I would really jump for joy at the prospect of dong it like they do in Europe will all falling steel but I really do not see that happening here.

[Scott R]

Or... Take the LaRue mechanism and attach a real plate (start with a 10"...?) to it off of a tall, skinny, vertical arm. It would be the "correct" shape for distant rifle targets that we are used to already (such as MGM or R&R for example), and if engineered properly could be made to accept different diameter plates to accomidate changes in range and MOA to keep things fair for the limited crowd.

What say you?

I built these plates as an attempt to fit within USPSA rules and have used them at local 3-Gun matches. Set on a firm base and adjusted light they worked fine out to 300 yards.

[ken hebert]

Are we gonna see these targets at PSC this weekend?

[Bryan 45]

Charles, I think Trapr's point is they make sure it works. Test the target to be engaged from the position(s) it may be engaged from with the same caliber it will be engaged with.

Oh yeah- important part here- before the match starts.

[benelli2]

Ken,

You are in a different groove and I don't think we are connecting.

Yes, you want recourse for a steel target that doesn't fall when hit.

What I am saying is there is a better recourse than calling for "calibration". That recourse is already on the books. Any steel plate that is hit and doesn't work...the RO issues a reshoot (and fixes the target setup, as needed).

It might be a good idea to use a procedure similar to calibration when setting up and adjusting the target. But, that doesn't mean you you need to be cobbled to the whole "calibration" thing that goes with poppers.

Here is the idea...if the steel is working as it properly should, then it should fall to any hit. If not...reshoot.

The current rule supports that.

Flex,

that would be great but unfortunately that is not what was done, Ro's weren't even watching through glass, just watching for it to fall, so so much for that rule, too bad it couldn't be figured out before a National event

jc

Edited October 28, 2009 by Flexmoney

[outerlimits]

i might add that the stage 2 RO's were calling hits on the larues. not sure why they weren't for stage 1.

[ken hebert]

I know its a touchy subject, and we all had slightly different expierences this past weekend, but how about if we left the RO's out of this discussion as much as we can...? These guys gave up a lot of their personal time to officiate a match for us. Lets cut 'em a little slack...