New to 38 Super

[rfwobbly]

My son picked up a 1911 in 38 Super and wants to join dad in IPSC shooting. I've got my 9mm reloading perfected, but I'm not fooled, 38 Super is more than a long cased 9mm.

My questions....

• My son is convinced that all factory loads for 38 Super are +P. That sounds fishy. Is he correct?

• If so, then will this gun want a softer recoil spring for target loads?

• Got lots of N320 for 9mm, but the books make it look like 38 Super prefers something slower. Is that right?

• Got lots of 124gr bullets for 9mm, are these OK or should we be looking at something heavier?

Just out for some skill honing and father/son time. Not trying to win money, get kissed by the girl in the swimsuit, or squirt champagne on everyone!

I have little experience loading for 1911 and none in 38 Super. All comments gratefully appreciated. It's important to me that my son enjoy his first IPSC outings.

[calishootr]

first off, the differences between the two are varied, the 9mm is actually a tapered case, and rimless, the 38 super as you have surmised is longer and it is a straightwall case...

also what kind of gun is this going in??? compguns are more closely associated w/ the 38 super cartridge in IPSC shooting

all loads for the 38 super are not +P, but it does help if you have +P cases(lil stronger in the web area)

which leads me to my next question, is it a non supported chamber ala stock colt 1911's??? or does it have an intergral ramp on the barrel???( will contain the higher pressures better, and not have blowouts atthe casehead web area)

the 124gr's are fine, currently I am running 115's thru several different comp guns on the 2011 frame, powders in the VV family that have been used are N350, 3n37, and 'new' on the scene is 3n38

spring weights can vary by alot, typically in most compguns are running with 10lb springs or lighter, i have a steel challenge type setup that runs a 7lb spring

you didnt say what division you wanted to come play with it in, but if you are attemptingto make major with it, the loads with the 124's will most definatly be +P and then some....

[ChuckS]

Keep in mind that the only division you get scored as major with 38 caliber bullets is Open. No need to beat up the gun in single stack or limited/l-10 since you will be scored minor regardless.

Later,

Chuck

Edited October 10, 2009 by ChuckS

[rfwobbly]

first off, the differences between the two are varied, the 9mm is actually a tapered case, and rimless, the 38 super as you have surmised is longer and it is a straightwall case...

also what kind of gun is this going in??? compguns are more closely associated w/ the 38 super cartridge in IPSC shooting

all loads for the 38 super are not +P, but it does help if you have +P cases(lil stronger in the web area)

which leads me to my next question, is it a non supported chamber ala stock colt 1911's??? or does it have an intergral ramp on the barrel???( will contain the higher pressures better, and not have blowouts at the casehead web area)

the 124gr's are fine, currently I am running 115's thru several different comp guns on the 2011 frame, powders in the VV family that have been used are N350, 3n37, and 'new' on the scene is 3n38

spring weights can vary by alot, typically in most compguns are running with 10lb springs or lighter, i have a steel challenge type setup that runs a 7lb spring

you didnt say what division you wanted to come play with it in, but if you are attempting to make major with it, the loads with the 124's will most definatly be +P and then some....

Opps. My bad!

This is a RIA (Armscor) full-size 1911 that looks like GI issue. (He's into military weapons, what can I say?) The barrel is ramped. He'll be using low power loads, so this is no comp-gun, just a fun gun. We bought +P brass to use. Class is undecided as of yet, probably just Production. He's ordered extra mags, but I'm not sure of their capacity.

Thanks for your help.

[bdpaz]

I use a .38 super 1911 in Single Stack just because I like the way it feels. With 124gr FMJ and TiteGroup the chrono measurements pretty much match Hodgdon's data. Nothing tricky about loading for it, other than you may have to shorten the book OAL a bit to fit the magazines, depending on the bullet shape.

[GrumpyOne]

I shoot an STI Trubor 38 super. Open is a bit different, but I load 10.2 grains of VVN105 over a 115 MG JHP. Really, the only brass you should look out for is stuff marked as 38 auto as it for the older 38 super auto and the brass is much thinner in the web than anything marked as +P, 99% of all other brass is going to be +P brass. Check Starline brass, good prices, great brass. If you aren't gonna be loading them hot to make major in open, I'd still buy the +P brass, cause I think it will last longer.

[gfmun]

I just started loading .38 Super major for Open. So far I know one thing. Brass makes all the difference. Get good brass and no problems that I have found. Range pickup and " fired once or twice" brass might be a problem when reloading.

thanks,

George

[NMBOpen]

first off, the differences between the two are varied, the 9mm is actually a tapered case, and rimless, the 38 super as you have surmised is longer and it is a straightwall case...

also what kind of gun is this going in??? compguns are more closely associated w/ the 38 super cartridge in IPSC shooting

all loads for the 38 super are not +P, but it does help if you have +P cases(lil stronger in the web area)

which leads me to my next question, is it a non supported chamber ala stock colt 1911's??? or does it have an intergral ramp on the barrel???( will contain the higher pressures better, and not have blowouts at the casehead web area)

the 124gr's are fine, currently I am running 115's thru several different comp guns on the 2011 frame, powders in the VV family that have been used are N350, 3n37, and 'new' on the scene is 3n38

spring weights can vary by alot, typically in most compguns are running with 10lb springs or lighter, i have a steel challenge type setup that runs a 7lb spring

you didnt say what division you wanted to come play with it in, but if you are attempting to make major with it, the loads with the 124's will most definatly be +P and then some....

Opps. My bad!

This is a RIA (Armscor) full-size 1911 that looks like GI issue. (He's into military weapons, what can I say?) The barrel is ramped. He'll be using low power loads, so this is no comp-gun, just a fun gun. We bought +P brass to use. Class is undecided as of yet, probably just Production. He's ordered extra mags, but I'm not sure of their capacity.

Thanks for your help.

Single action (ala 1911) is not permitted in Production - that is restricted to Double Action/Safe Action only. See Appendix D4 here: http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2008HandgunRulesindexed.pdf

[Jeff686]

The appropriate place for this pistol is in the Single Stack division. With this gun, you should use 10 round magazines and load only to USPSA Minor power factor.

It was only recently that (in Single Stack Division) 38 Super had any logical home in USPSA, other than in Open Division. I has been very popular in Open Division. Therefore, most all of the discussion about 38 Super, reloading recipes, and brass strength are directly related to shooing in Open. Note that most all open shooters use slow powder to make the comps work, and load up to 170 or more power factor.

For you, no reason for +P brass. Find a recipe for the same powder you use for 9mm. I use the same bullets in 9mm and 38 super.

Edited October 11, 2009 by Jeff686

[calishootr]

now with that info, +1 to all the guy's posts, making minor will be no problem( bullet wt. x velocity) an shootin single stack will be a perfect fit forthat gun, back in the day, when thats all we had were single stack 38 supers w/ dots I was loading bullets out as far as 1.175, butthe 124's should go around 1.150ish, plenty of room in a single stack mag, least it was in my McCormicks load for it like your 9mm, same same powder should work fine

[Guy Neill]

By SAAMI, 38 Super factory loads are rated as +P. This came about because of it being dimensionally the same as the 38 ACP, but loaded to higher pressures. When they started looking at things like +P for the 38 Special, they thought that the +P designation was appropriate for the Super as well, even though it has a different name, unlike the 38 Special and 38 Special +P (and +P+). Loads making Major are usually higher pressure than factory since factory ammunition does not make the Major power factor.

Since you are not trying to load it to make Major power factor, develop the load, with whatever powder, so that you make Minor with enough extra to allow for variations,, just as you do with your 9mm.

There shouldn't be any problem using the 124gr bullets.

Guy

[chirpy]

You might try some 147 gr. bullets also. I find them softer shooting than lighter bullets for USPSA and IDPA.

JMHO

Richard

[G-ManBart]

Opps. My bad!

This is a RIA (Armscor) full-size 1911 that looks like GI issue. (He's into military weapons, what can I say?) The barrel is ramped. He'll be using low power loads, so this is no comp-gun, just a fun gun. We bought +P brass to use. Class is undecided as of yet, probably just Production. He's ordered extra mags, but I'm not sure of their capacity.

Thanks for your help.

Okay, he's going to have to shoot the gun in one of the following: Single Stack (best choice), Limited-10 (second best), Limited (no reason to), Open (not worth trying).

If he has any competitive spirit in him he's going to want ten round magazines. McCormick springs and followers will often take a standard 9rd Super mag and make it into a 10rd mag. I had good luck with McCormick mags, but Wilson also makes a good Super mag.

Pretty much any brass you run into these days is actually made like +P brass (thicker web area) regardless of how it's marked. I've used Win, Rem and Starline Super brass and they're all slightly different from a capacity standpoint, so it's smart to pick one and stick with it. I've loaded all three brands well over a dozen times and they continue to work fine until the primer pockets loosen up, which will take a while with light loads. Heck, you often couldn't read the headstamp by the time the case mouth would split (this was when I was a broke college student!).

124gr bullets will work fine, but often you'll get better accuracy with .356" bullets rather than .355" bullets designed for 9mm....just depends on how the barrel was cut. There are lots of powders that will work....just find a combo that will push that 124gr bullet around 1100fps and he'll be set. For something even softer feeling, try heavier bullets...something like 147gr from Montana Gold, Zero or Precision Delta and push them around 950fps. Loads like this are very mild and lots of fun to shoot.

It's a little bit older, but it's still good data (click on the Super section and it'll bring up lots of loads):

http://www.k8nd.com/ipscload.htm

[G-ManBart]

powders in the VV family that have been used are N350, 3n37, and 'new' on the scene is 3n38

If that's new, I'm clearly getting old! LOL....N105 is even newer and both are listed on Jeff's site which dates from 2003

Edit to add: You may want to check the OAL's you listed in your other post....you said 1.15 and 1.17 and I think you meant 1.25 and 1.27 since you were talking about loading long, not loading 9mm lengths. R,

Edited October 11, 2009 by G-ManBart

[CocoBolo]

I load 9's and 38 Super Comps by the 1,000. I use the same crip die, expander die, bullet seating die on both, I did get a 38 Super Sizing Die but I did load a bunch of 38 super with a 9 mm die, I don't recommend it. Be sure to drop check everything used super cases can be way fat.

The slower powders are for major power factor. If the gun is new and tight and the spring is heavy throw about 5.gr of N320 behind a 124gr and it should run the gun good a strong for break in then drop it down to 4.6 to 4.8gr to get to a pf of abround 130. Use the chrono for this.

I use both N350 and Accurate 7 in my open guns but thats not going to make a good load in a non compensated gun. A good powder that sits on the border line is IMR7625 I have shot it both compensated and non compled and it makes a decent powder for both.

As always check for pressure sings, you know flat primers and blow thru, then back off if you need to.

[chirpy]

Someone brought up mags so I thought I'd better add this...I have had good luck with both Wilson and McCormick 10 round .38 Super mags but MY Wilsons require a shorter OAL (never measured the difference) so I load so my ammo works in the Wilsons and they work in the McC's too. When I started loading .38S major and minor the VV powders weren't around so I've made do with what I had on hand and have had no reason to change. But, as I said in my first post I like 147's in Super and will be loading them in 9 also. I will probably save the lighter bullets for practice.

FWIW

Richard

[rfwobbly]

Wow !! This is a lot of information to digest.

Thanks for everyone's helpful response.

[bikerburgess]

I shoot the same gun in single stack it is a hoot to shoot. I load 158 grain lrn bullets over clays would have to look up the charge weight I load them to about 130 power factor with the stock recoil spring and the brass gets ejected a out 2 feet but the gun shoots soft. I use the McCormic mags and have had no problems with the

Tell your son go have funn

[Al Capizzo]

I'm another fan of the .38 super in single stack 1911's.

Assuming you want to approximate factory loads when starting out, Viht lists 4.7 to 5.4 grains of N320 with 124 grain jacketed bullets. Since you already have this powder and bullets on hand, that seems like a good place to start.

For a very mild load in my 1911 I really like Winchester Super Target (4.4 grains) with a 115 gr. bullets. I'm shooting Precision bullets with it.

I'm surprised no one has passed this link along yet: http://www.38super.net/index.html

Good luck and have fun!

[rfwobbly]

Geez! This is getting so good, I may have to buy one of these guns myself !!!

Thanks again to everyone.

[bikerburgess]

I looked up my load last night I am running 2.7 grains of clays under a 158 lrn it shoots so soft I love it. These are .358 bullets but they shoot better out of both my supers than 9mm sized bullets ymmv.