Ready to order upper assembly from DPMS

[Alaskapopo]

Hey Gang,

First and foremost thank you very much for helping out a newbie... quite frankly, I'm lost! So, I am now ready to order all upper parts for a lower I bought 10 years ago and has been collecting dust in my safe. Plan on using it for 3-Gun Tactical Division. I know I can order a complete barrel assembly, but there are some things I want that are not available. Here's my order so far:

*A3 Flattop Upper Receiver (complete): Includes charging handle, ejection cover assembly & forward assist

*Chromium Plated Bolt Carrier & Bolt Assembly

*16" Bull Barrel with Gas Block .223

*Hogue Standard Soft Rubber Free Float Tube

*Bennie Cooley Tactical Comp (to be installed professionally; don't know by who yet, but I sure as heck can't do it)

What am I missing to complete this upper? Small parts? Important parts? I already have the Meopta K-dot scope I plan on using with it as well as a JP mount. Sorry for the dumb questions guys, but we all start somewhere. I'm glad there is a forum like BE to humiliate myself on but at the same time get the help and advice I need.

Thanks again,

Brian

Brian I respect your experience. The first department I worked for we had 12 DPMS guns. 10 semi M4's and 2 full autos. One of the full autos fired when the safety was applied due to the hammer breaking its j spring and the hammer pin moving out of position. All the guns had issues with undersized chambers. They were supposed to be 5.56 but they were more like .223 with a little slop. Another gun was missing its gas tube retaining pin when it arrived. About 30% of the guns would not go more than 100 rounds before extraction difficulties began. I was able to get them running with BCM extractor up grade kits and other new parts. We could not use 5.56 ammo

Next department had 4 DPMS guns and 2 had issues with extraction. My current department has 6 guns about 4 of them would not run when I got here. Again BCM extractor upgrade kits, staked the gas keys and hoped for the best. My personal Colt 6920 has always ran. If you talk to real people who use these guns for a living DPMS has a [bad] reputation. But then it figures as you get what you pay for. Here is an article that illistrates typical DPMS performance when it counts.

QUOTE

AAR - Center Mass, Inc. Patrol Rifle Instructor School

I recently returned from a Center Mass Inc. Patrol Rifle Instructor School. The course is an instructor-level, 5-day, 50+ hour curriculum of instruction on pertinent aspects of patrol rifle program development, training, and deployment. On the web here: http://www.centermassinc.com/638278.html

The Course:

Content covered the many pertinent aspects of LE patrol rifle programs. Topics were spaced out throughout the week in a logical sequence. Exercises were conducted in an allotment of time sufficient for the lowest common denominator to achieve a basic proficiency. Two sessions of classroom training were conducted, almost one full day on TD1 and the morning of TD3. Night exercises were conducted on TD3 and covered common low/no light deployment methods. The balance of the course was dry and live fire exercises on at the outdoor range facility.

Included within the course were exercises on a CAPS system for scenario based training. This was a highlight of the course for many, as most students had never used a live-fire simulation system. On the web at: http://www.caps-inc.com/

Throughout the week, students were prompted to spontaneously instruct a particular skill, coach others, and run the line as other students shot. When not assigned such a task, each student coached another student.

The course concluded with student presentations of assigned topics, a written test of material covered, and a COF most found challenging. The COF is well written, one of the better for this purpose in fact, and included a test of each skill learned within the course.

Each student received an exceptionally well prepared and comprehensive manual containing the entirety of course content, as well as additional supportive information and resources.

Students:

Students in attendance were all currently serving law enforcement firearms instructors in agencies deploying patrol rifles, planning to, or contemplating same. Previous training and experience varied, with some who had substantial training, instructional background, or operational experience, and others with only basic/initial LEFI certs. The latter were the bulk of the class. Most of the students were known to each other, and the class gelled well.

Equipment:

Equipment varied. Some arrived with quality gear proven to be GTG that ran with boring reliability. The tendency of administrators to economize was clearly evident, and there was a disproportionate amount of gear purchased with economy in mind rather than performance. There were no surprises.

DPMS: Several in attendance. A disproportionate amount of the stoppages, failures, and issues were with these guns. None possessed sufficient gas key staking. None were staked at the receiver extension nut. One had suspect chamber dims. None had the correct extractor spring assembly. One officer brought a carbine with a 4-position selector, sequenced (from the 9:00) Safe-Auto-Semi-Burst. He fought the gun. DPMS buyers cited low price and immediate availability as primary purchase criteria. When discussing desirable assembly methods and the reasons for them, one owner asked, “why don’t they just do that at the factory?” Overheard from another: “There are four problems with my gun: 1) D. 2) P. 3) M. 4) S.”

Eotechs: The first went loose on TD1, and 2 more during the week. The first went loose again later as well. Guys with these on their guns learned fast, and constantly checked their gear. Also heard: “Hey, who turned off my sight?”

Defensive Edge SLR-15: Nicely assembled. Positive staking of all pertinents. Proper extractor spring insert. When lubed correctly, it ran well. Unresolved quirk while seating a couple of mags. Pending.

HK G36K: Two in attendance, both ran well. The stocks are too long for pretty much everyone, and especially for IBOs. HK mags tend to hang in pouches and pockets due to the tabs that link them together. If mags won’t be linked together in the field, users might consider shaving them off.

Mini-14: Get it hot, run it dry, and watch it lock up tight. Credit where credit is due: the firing pin and extractor made it.

Remington Rem-Oil: Doesn’t go the distance. A light, sporting/commercial grade lubricant that should stay in that venue.

Weaponshield CLP: At least as good as the other CLPs out there, and just may be much better than most. Comparatively less evap, burn-off, and run-off than others on the line, especially Breakfree.

Stoppages due to insufficient lube- multiple. The “less is more” mantras, old military habits, and aversions to having a “messy gun” die hard. Some learned, stubborn others will return to the road with guns that won’t run long.

Loose pistol grip screws- 2. While effecting repair of one, an instructor was surprised to learn that PG screws were not standardized, with some being slotted and some being hex. Only the slotted driver was readily available.

Extraction failures- multiple. Several guns came with rifle extractor spring assemblies, and it showed. Weak or absent extraction in fouled or hot guns was frequent. Most commonly in DPMS.

Magazine issues- Various problems from USGI mags that have been kept in service too long. Some D&H mags were seen with that soft, easily deformed quasi-GI follower.

Likewise, the ammunition supplied for this course provided its own quirks. 21 shooters fired ~21,000 rounds of Remington UMC 55gr MC (p/n L223R3). Bullet setback, bullet deformation, case deformation, jacket/core separation in 1/7 twist, and failures to fire were observed. There were no catastrophic failures.

As always, you get what you pay for. Buy cheap, buy twice.

Some gear that should’ve had issues was spared them. The firing schedule was more than most were used to, but not particularly intense. Further indictment of the gear that faltered.

My gear ran without issue, as it always has. Worn daily:

Colt LE6920 w/ irons only, mounted Surefire G2, Specter sling.

Magpul PMags and CProducts SS mags in Wilderness pouches.

3 handguns, Glocks 23 (belt), 27 (ankle), SW 642 (pocket). Worn every day.

Surefire E-series lights in the pockets.

This was the major shakedown cruise for PMags, and they did well. One showed some resistance to seating in the 6920 and did not drop free when empty. Removing a little material from the top of the mag catch detent seems to have done the trick.

This was also a test of the Weaponshield CLP sample(s) sent from the manufacturer. I started TD1 with a clean and lubed gun. Relubed TD3. Knocked the chunks out and relubed on the morning of TD4. Cleaned and relubed late TD4 and shot TD5 clean. Due to the combined hot/cold range management and breezy conditions, I was able to accumulate a good quantity of dirt and dust along the way as well.

My final round count: ~1200rds.

Parting thoughts:

LESO/1033 M-16s remain viable and popular patrol rifles. They are quality builds, and perform well when properly maintained. When service is indicated, put the good stuff in it to keep it going.

A competent shooter does not require an accessorized M4-type to bring the fight to the bad guy. An incompetent shooter isn’t made better by one. Fundamentals first, especially for the police patrol environment.

Optics and accessories add a dimension to training most instructors underestimate. But they're neat, aren't they?

Instructor development is not a course or a certification, it’s a pursuit that doesn’t end.

Based on the above, I recommend this course to others in need of training on the subject. Good week.

[Brian Payne]

"If you talk to people who use these guns for a living"

I guess I need to expand my circle of friends. No further discussion from my end. I will keep my DPMS rifles though.

[TonyH]

Hard to understand why so much trouble with a certain Mfg???????????????????????? I have never heard of so many problems with staking & extraction that as has been stated. I shot thousands upon thousands of rounds through my DPMS & have never had any of these problems. Accuracy & reliablility are outstanding.

Tony

[Tyler Payne]

I've shot more rounds through my DPMS in the last month then our local p.d. has fired in a year with ZERO malfunctions.

[kellyn]

Keep it civil people. Think about your posts before you start tossing around terms like "crap" and "Nazis." You are free to criticize DPMS or Colt or whoever else but keep it civil and respectful.

There is no 1st Amendment on the Forums!

[Alaskapopo]

I've shot more rounds through my DPMS in the last month then our local p.d. has fired in a year with ZERO malfunctions.

I find it strange that you would know exactly how many rounds your local PD fires in their guns. Only the firearms instructor and the chief knows that for sure. If you have had no malfunctions with a DPMS you are a very lucky man. Anyone who has had 0 malfunctions with any firearm either has not shot much or is not being 100% honest. All guns fail they are man made. However certain brands fail more than others. You get what you pay for.

Pat

Edited September 23, 2009 by Alaskapopo

[jobob]

I recently sold a DPMS carbine and a S&W revolver. Then I ordered a new BCM middy upper which just arrived today. Haven't shot it yet, but it looks very well made. If it shoot like it looks, it MIGHT shoot as well as the DPMS I sold! That gun was 100% reliable and could easily keep it's shots within 1" at 100 yds.

I still kick myself for most of my past gun sales, and I hope that I'm not sorry for this sale. I'm sure the BCM will be a fine gun, but I don't think it will be much of an improvement over the DPMS. Cosmetically it's a bit prettier, but frankly, I can't see how it can be functionally any better. Kinda like trading a Buick for a Caddy. They both work well, but one costs more and you can feel more important if you have one!

[Roktoys84]

The difference between Colt, LMT, BCM and [expletive deleted] companies like DPMS is quality control. Been an armorer working on AR's for about 7 of my 10 years as a cop now. Do a search on DPMS on this site http://www.m4carbine.net/forum.php Its about the best source of information on the web about AR15's.

Read this you might learn something.

Pat

That chart is laughable, it's not even current. The specs on many of those guns have changed. ARs are only as good as their parts, and even many of the cheaper brands are mil spec quality. Buy what you can afford, upgrade as you see fit (or just shoot it).

[lmccrock]

DPMS lead times have come down a bunch for AR15 stuff; 308 is still out there a ways. Have some spare parts (which you should regardless) and you are good to go.

"The chart" certainly evokes emotion, and there are updates if you check the right place. "Mil-spec" is just that: a spec. Are 1:7" twist and 5.56 chamber best? Arguably not for our sport, but those are mil-spec so are considered gospel by chart-ers.

I would care more if I were going into combat and needed more quality and an exact match for supply chain issues, but I am not, so I do not choose to spend Mercedes money for Chevy tastes. So, no JP rifle, either. My competiton pistols are Glock and Para, the rifle is DPMS upper/Bushmaster lower, the shotgun Remington.

Lee

[Alaskapopo]

The difference between Colt, LMT, BCM and [expletive deleted] companies like DPMS is quality control. Been an armorer working on AR's for about 7 of my 10 years as a cop now. Do a search on DPMS on this site http://www.m4carbine.net/forum.php Its about the best source of information on the web about AR15's.

Read this you might learn something.

Pat

That chart is laughable, it's not even current. The specs on many of those guns have changed. ARs are only as good as their parts, and even many of the cheaper brands are mil spec quality. Buy what you can afford, upgrade as you see fit (or just shoot it).

There is a more updated chart available. But DPMS has not moved up since this chart. They still make sub standard products that I have personal experience with. Even their lower parts kits are suspect. Here is a DPMS hammer pin that broke on me. I don't trust their products at all. This is not coming from internet lore but rather first hand personal experiences with their stuff not making the grade. The only thing laughable is recommending DPMS. It shows a lot about the knowledge base or rather lack of on the persons part who recommended them.

Edited September 25, 2009 by Alaskapopo

[Religious Shooter]

If you look at the title of this thread... "Ready to order UPPER ASSEMBLY from DPMS".

[D.Hayden]

DPMS is the best sponsor for 3 Gun events.. period.

I've never had any issues, and I don't know anyone else that has.. I will always look to them when buying something..

[BN91205]

If you look at the title of this thread... "Ready to order UPPER ASSEMBLY from DPMS".

Agreed! Sheesh, all I was looking for was some advice on PARTS. What did I get myself into?

[Revopop]

Don't take it wrong, there's only one person I've seen on the forum who's had bad experiences with DPMS, and he's occasionally very vocal about it.

[Mike P]

FWIW, I was looking for info on the CSAT rear sight, and found that they (CSAT) recommend the DPMS AP4 mid length with FF handguard. The site says they also use them for rental guns.

That's good enough for me. Not to mention the one I own has given and continues to give good service.

Mike

[Alaskapopo]

Don't take it wrong, there's only one person I've seen on the forum who's had bad experiences with DPMS, and he's occasionally very vocal about it.

If that were really true then this fourm is very sheltered from reality. Go on some other sites like www.m4carbine.net and ask about DPMS. You will find its not a popular brand. Also ask the worlds best trainers like Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers which guns they see run and which don't. You will see there opinion of DPMS is also very low. Competition shooters in general seem to be more tolerant of poor reliability because their life is not on the line and they like to tinker with their guns anyway to get them running.

Pat

[Alaskapopo]

DPMS is the best sponsor for 3 Gun events.. period.

I've never had any issues, and I don't know anyone else that has.. I will always look to them when buying something..

I don't care how much money they throw at the sport. If you have never seen an issue with a DPMS then you have not looked very hard. There is a thread on a DPMS issue right now in this very forum. They make substandard products and they won't be getting any of my money or any more of my departments money.

Pat

Edited September 29, 2009 by Alaskapopo

[GentlemanJim]

With the panic buying in the recent past...do not be surprised that not so good parts end up in brand name guns.

And mil-spec...its not something to brag about...many many parts and guns far exceed mil-spec in several ways.

You may also think about the fact that many over the counter guns share quite a few parts

I bet most of us have seen some goofy stuff occur in a varity of brands.

No Drama...just life in general

Jim