When is a gun dropped?

[ima45dv8]

Why not call the RO over and say "I dropped my gun out of my holster while resetting this steel and caught it here against my leg, can you retrieve it for me so I'm not "handling" it?"

Because that IS handling the gun.

The RO can then make the call as to rather or not he thinks the competitor was "handling" the gun. I'd have a hard time holding it against a guy/gal, but the fact remains that the rule book must be followed. In this case handling would be an interpretation best left up to the MD.

If a competitor is standing there with a gun held against their leg, that isn't a judgement call.

Look, if someone decides to catch their $3,000 blaster against their leg rather than letting it hit the ground, I can understand that. But it's still a DQ and I don't need an MD to come over and make an 'interpretation' for me. I can read just fine on my own.

[JThompson]

Also, the only thing an MD does is get an arb together. They have no authority over the shooters once the match has begun. (RO CRO RM) Now if they are doubling as the RM that's another story, but I think we need to be clear on this point.

JT

EDIT:

I don't know why this thread is still open, everything that can be said has been said. You want to catch it, even if you then set it on the ground, you are going to be DQed if the RO/CRO/RM follow the book. If you are on my range you will be going home. This is not because of what I "think" but because by participating I have chosen to accept the rules, not just the ones I agree with but all of them.

If you don't want your gun to hit the ground get a better holster, pay better attention, or catch the thing and DQ yourself. Those are the options... I don't know what else there is to say....

J

Edited September 4, 2009 by JThompson

[Flyin40]

I'm catching the gun regardless of what the rules say.

Flyin,

How do you think the sport got as safe as it is? Do you think it could have anything to do with people following the rules?

Reread this sentence right after it. It happens automactically from yrs and yrs of doing it. Also there is no rule against it like it has been said. Your not allowed handling it. If you cantch it you automatically handle it so there would be a DQ.

Let me ask you this then......

A shooter faces uprange in a start position and the RO ask which way he is going to turn. He tells the RO then the RO or another shooter tells everyone to move back from where he is going to turn just to make sure everyone is safe.

Everyone is several yards behind the rear fault line prior to the start of a COF but the RO or others shooters ask everyone to move back jsut a bit further.

You have shooter standing on one side of the bay well behind the rear fault line and out of danger. There is a target on that same side of the bay at close to the 180. Shooters and RO's ask them to move back just a bit further.

There is nothing at all in the rules about any of those things but its the people in our sport that go above and beyond to make sure everyone is safe. That little extra effort goes along ways.

The rules define what is safe and unsafe but the rules do not make the sport safe. The shooters make the sport safe, our actions make the sport safe.

For those saying let it drop is that safe??? How many times has a gun gone off when it hit the ground at a match?? I bet more than it has went off when someone tries to catch it.

In the same breath I don't have anything to prove that catching it is any safer. Its just my opinion that it is safer which really doesn't mean squat. I feel there is a bigger chance of it going off hitting the ground than catching it.

With all the people working on triggers in this sport I think letting it hit the ground poses a huge safety factor. How many people guns have you seen double at a match due to them working on it. How many hammers follow the slide or how many guns have you seen go full auto?? I have seen all the above and seen the first 2 quite a bit. Plus we put a ton of rounds through a gun that wear those trigger parts out.

I would be more willing to let a gun from the factory hit the ground than I would with a gun in our sport that has been tinkered with by a home smith. Doesn't mean it is safer but atleast there are some check and balances at the factory and the work was done by a certified smith.

Most of the time people in our sport with race holsters know that there is a chance of the gun fallign out so when they bend over to pick up brass or steel, squeeze through a couple walls or whatever they have their hand near the gun just to make sure it doesn't fall out. I would guess its usually those situations that then gun is caught. There really isn't going to be enough time to catch a gun if you bump into something then look and see your gun falling. Its probably going to be hitting the ground as your looking at it.

Flyin

Edited September 4, 2009 by Flyin40

[bbbean]

While we're splitting hairs, what about an unloaded gun in, say, a CR speed holster that gets bumped enough to bump the trigger guard out of the retaining clip, but the muzzle stays on the post, and the shooter "catches" the gun before it completely leaves the holster. Can he simply walk to the safe area and reholster, or does he need to call an RO?

[JThompson]

While we're splitting hairs, what about an unloaded gun in, say, a CR speed holster that gets bumped enough to bump the trigger guard out of the retaining clip, but the muzzle stays on the post, and the shooter "catches" the gun before it completely leaves the holster. Can he simply walk to the safe area and reholster, or does he need to call an RO?

Mr. Chairman... point of order. A gun is drawn when the trigger guard is exposed. I have caught mine on the post before and would do so again. Technically I should have DQed myself for handling the gun outside the supervision of an RO or safe area. I feel at that point it's safer to stop the muzzle from rotating around and pointing at people. So if this happens again, and it will, I shall rock it back in retention and let the chips fall. I think, in this hypothetical, it's clearly safer than letting it fall. We're talking about CR Speed type where the trigger guard has been bumped out, but the barrel has not left the post.

JT

Edited September 4, 2009 by JThompson

[Singlestack]

Flyin,

There is a rule against it. It is called Handling.

My point was this. We don't get to pick which rules we want to follow. The only way to insure everyone's safety is to follow all the rules.

You saying "I don't care if it is against the rules, I'm going to do it anyway" causes me a great deal of concern. How do I know what other rules you don't like? What if you think the 180 rule does not need to be followed? Not saying you do but I think you get my point.

[Flyin40]

Flyin,

There is a rule against it. It is called Handling.

My point was this. We don't get to pick which rules we want to follow. The only way to insure everyone's safety is to follow all the rules.

You saying "I don't care if it is against the rules, I'm going to do it anyway" causes me a great deal of concern. How do I know what other rules you don't like? What if you think the 180 rule does not need to be followed? Not saying you do but I think you get my point.

LOL, wow now your reaching Not even going to reply to some statement like that. Just say we agree to disagree and thats that.

Flyin

Edited September 4, 2009 by Flyin40

[DyNo!]

Firearms safety rule #1.

Catch a gun and you just might catch a bullet too.

DQ

[Flyin40]

Firearms safety rule #1.

Catch a gun and you just might catch a bullet too.

DQ

Let the gun hit the ground....catch a round

Flyin

Edited September 4, 2009 by Flyin40

[sperman]

I think there are lots of guns that are much safer to let drop.  Maybe not a 1911 with a 1.5 lb. trigger, but most of the striker fired guns have multiple safeties to keep anything from happening when they are dropped.

[Nik Habicht]

Firearms safety rule #1.

Catch a gun and you just might catch a bullet too.

DQ

Let the gun hit the ground....catch a round

Flyin

If you're gun's potentially gonna go off when it hits the ground, I'd think you'd want to fix it......

[Nik Habicht]

I don't know what the percentage is, but I'm betting that if we surveyed accidental shootings across the U.S. for a year, a number of those would involve someone uttering the phrase "but I thought/knew it was unloaded." There's a reason that "Guns are always loaded" is part of the four rules.

We can't compare the individuals in our sport to every Joe Public when it comes to accidents and guns. I hear and see this alot and it makes no sense at all to throw that stuff in there. If someone wants to talk about having rules because some Joe Smoe has an accident or something like Nik said about surveying everyone and they would say "I thought the gun was unloaded" then by the same logic we shouldn't be aloud to run around with loaded guns or there shouldn't be allowed to even be Uspsa

because of all the accidents out there. And Nik this isn't about you at all, this is something I see alot and hear it alot. The members make this sport safe and the amount of time and energy that we put out to make this a safe sport is huge. We go above and beyond to do the things necessary to make it safe so to lump us in with everyone is pretty much an insult to me and our sport. In no way am I saying your were trying to insult me or anyone else and I don't believe for one second you meant it that way but its just a slap in the face to hear that kind of stuff.

Again Nik I'm not trying to single you out and want you to know I think you do a great job but I see this alot from alot of different people on the forums(and just dealt with it on the Ipsc forums) and hear it alot at matches and I don't like hearing it. I like shooting this sport but one of the things that I like most about our sport and that I'm most proud of being a member of Uspsa is how safe our members are and how much effort they put into being safe. The biggest area this shows is helping out new shooters understand how important safety is and that we take it very seriously. I know Nik probably has helped dozen and dozens and probably hundreds of guys out with safety issues with the intention of making our sport better. Thats what I like is members putting forth that effort. One of the things when I describe this to someone who never seen or heard of Uspsa is how much fun it is and the very next thing is talking about safety and how seriously we take it.

Flyin

Flyin,

my original comment -- quoted again above -- was in direct response to something that another poster wrote in this thread. I don't know STInky; it's entirely possible that I misunderstood him, but I understood him to say that catching a gun was a safe act because he and the RO both knew that the gun was unloaded. That statement came after he said that he understood the four laws of firearms safety.

Yep, we're running one of, if not the safest sports out there. I wouldn't be willing to go shoot most every weekend if I didn't believe that as ardently as you do. Personally though, I'm not comfortable with the presumption that a firearm is ever unloaded. I expect my fellow competitors to always assume that their guns are loaded, and to act accordingly --- because our safety record exists as a direct consequence of that....

So when individual members suggest that they'd violate a safety rule --- because they consider that violation to be safer than the alternative --- I've really got to wonder why they're not petitioning the Board of Directors for a rule change.....

A modern gun in proper working order, with all available fire control safeties intact, should not discharge on impact when dropped from holster (or even shooting position) level.....

[1911onr]

I agree with sperman: If it's a Glock, let it drop. Don't be a Plaxaco.

[Flyin40]

Flyin,

my original comment -- quoted again above -- was in direct response to something that another poster wrote in this thread. I don't know STInky; it's entirely possible that I misunderstood him, but I understood him to say that catching a gun was a safe act because he and the RO both knew that the gun was unloaded. That statement came after he said that he understood the four laws of firearms safety.

Understood and I really tried to make you know that it wasn't you or even how you put but rather the statement in general. Comparing Uspsa shooter to everyone else, someone can do that but its really not valid.

Yep, we're running one of, if not the safest sports out there. I wouldn't be willing to go shoot most every weekend if I didn't believe that as ardently as you do. Personally though, I'm not comfortable with the presumption that a firearm is ever unloaded. I expect my fellow competitors to always assume that their guns are loaded, and to act accordingly --- because our safety record exists as a direct consequence of that....

I agree 100% and thats why if I can stop a gun from hitting the ground I'm going to because we treat it as loaded. There is not any proof that a dropped gun is safer than catching the gun. I said earlier a large percentage of the guns caught is right beside the holster. If its already falling there is not going to be much of a chance of catching it.

So when individual members suggest that they'd violate a safety rule --- because they consider that violation to be safer than the alternative --- I've really got to wonder why they're not petitioning the Board of Directors for a rule change.....

Thats the point......I never said the alternative was safer. Letting a gun hit the ground is not safe, catching it is not safe so what do you do?? I never said catch it was the right thing but I believe in my own opinion which I also said don't mean squat in an earlier post is the safer of the two so thats what I'm going to go with.

A modern gun in proper working order, with all available fire control safeties intact, should not discharge on impact when dropped from holster (or even shooting position) level.....

Again this is perfect.........I don't know if I would say 50%, it could be higher or lower but all available safeties do not function in Uspsa(pinned grip safety) and all the home smiths workign on triggers make a dropped gun unsafe. Not sure if you read the whole thread through but I posted again and said I would be more willing to let a factory gun drop because of the checks and balances at the factory and certified smiths. So I agree again with your point.

Just because there is a rule for safety doesn't mean its always the best thing to follow. If your pumping gas and see someone robbing the store and getting ready to shoot the clerk........there is a law against discharging a gun in a city(depending where you live) for the safety of the public. I know I'm going to help.

If you get call from your family member that someone is breaking in your house and your a couple blocks away from the house I'm sure 99% of the people on the forum will hit 911 while driving 100miles an hr to get to the house. Your breaking all kinds of rules(laws) and how do you justify it in your own mind.

And another good one......... what if there is a law against gun ownership because someone thinks it safer to not have a gun. I think most would still have guns

For those who don't like my examples

Law...."any written or positive rule or collection of rules prescribed under the authority of the state or nation, as by the people in its constitution"

Flyin

[Singlestack]

Hmmmm...

It seems both George and Nik have changed their positions since '09.

[Singlestack]

Just did a bit more reading...

Maybe not so much George.

[GrumpyOne]

Just had to stir the pot, huh?

[ima45dv8]

Just did a bit more reading...

Maybe not so much George.

Maybe so.

See post #36.

If you catch a falling gun outside a COF, you are "handling".

OK?

[ima45dv8]

Just had to stir the pot, huh?

I sometimes call him "Maytag".

He's an agitator.

[Nik Habicht]

Hmmmm...

It seems both George and Nik have changed their positions since '09.

Hmmm, flunked reading comprehension, did you? :D

I haven't changed my mind. This thread was about "catching" a gun. I don't know how y'all catch down in Georgia, but up here in the northeast, it generally involves hands --- which gets us right to two out of three words in the "handling definition" in Appendix A3.

"The act of manipulating, holding, or gripping a firearm while the trigger is functionally accessible."

I have a tough time reading that as being about anything else but "hand on gun" while the trigger is accessible. So in this case -- DQ under 10.5.1 for (catching) handling...

[Nik Habicht]

Just had to stir the pot, huh?

I sometimes call him "Maytag".

He's an agitator.

My best friend's like that.....

[Singlestack]

Hmmmm...

It seems both George and Nik have changed their positions since '09.

Hmmm, flunked reading comprehension, did you? :D

I haven't changed my mind. This thread was about "catching" a gun. I don't know how y'all catch down in Georgia, but up here in the northeast, it generally involves hands --- which gets us right to two out of three words in the "handling definition" in Appendix A3.

"The act of manipulating, holding, or gripping a firearm while the trigger is functionally accessible."

I have a tough time reading that as being about anything else but "hand on gun" while the trigger is accessible. So in this case -- DQ under 10.5.1 for (catching) handling...

Well.. down here, in Jawga, when a fella is standing there with his gun pinned against his leg, we figure he caught it. So ifn y'all Yankees wanna come down here and trap yer fallin gun agin yer leg and claim ya didnt catch it, weuns is prolly gonna point our fingers and laugh atcha. I don't know much about that thar "reading comprehension" (hell, I hada look it up. Throwin them $.50 words around ) but I do know this, ain't no dern gun gettin pinned against yer leg all by itself. Theys sum catchin gettin dun somewhars. You can go ta crawfishin all ya want, ifn its pinned agin yer leg, ya caught it.

[GrumpyOne]

Hmmmm...

It seems both George and Nik have changed their positions since '09.

Hmmm, flunked reading comprehension, did you? :D

I haven't changed my mind. This thread was about "catching" a gun. I don't know how y'all catch down in Georgia, but up here in the northeast, it generally involves hands --- which gets us right to two out of three words in the "handling definition" in Appendix A3.

"The act of manipulating, holding, or gripping a firearm while the trigger is functionally accessible."

I have a tough time reading that as being about anything else but "hand on gun" while the trigger is accessible. So in this case -- DQ under 10.5.1 for (catching) handling...

Well.. down here, in Jawga, when a fella is standing there with his gun pinned against his leg, we figure he caught it. So ifn y'all Yankees wanna come down here and trap yer fallin gun agin yer leg and claim ya didnt catch it, weuns is prolly gonna point our fingers and laugh atcha. I don't know much about that thar "reading comprehension" (hell, I hada look it up. Throwin them $.50 words around ) but I do know this, ain't no dern gun gettin pinned against yer leg all by itself. Theys sum catchin gettin dun somewhars. You can go ta crawfishin all ya want, ifn its pinned agin yer leg, ya caught it.

[Flexmoney]

Ever think about a true law? It's one you can't break. Somebody around here has a cool sig line that reads "Obey gravity. It's the law."

If a gun falls, but doesn't hit the ground....something has stopped it. If that something is the human...then they have "caught" the gun. I don't think it matters if they use their lizard mutant tongue to do it or their hands. Caught is caught. They are holding that gun...defying gravity.

[Chuck Anderson]

As far as the original senario....your gun falling from the holster while setting steel or reaching to pick up a pepper-popper while you are not actively involved in shooting the stage: I'm catching my gun !!!

I truely understand the "always loaded" golden rule and respect that...but I know it's not loaded, the RO that cleared me on the last stage that I shot knows it's not loaded...and I don't want my $2K limited gun hitting the ground !

Bring on the Ice Cream !!!

I know it's not the same, but at a recent 3-Gun match we were leaving guns, they were being cleared and set in the racks by other competitors. I finished the course, grabbed my rifle off the rack, put it in the case, took it in the hotel that night, realized I was too lazy to clean it or dry fire (thank God), put it in the rack for almost two hours the next morning, climbed a 20 foot tower with it and when the RO hollered to Make Ready, I racked a live round out of the gun.

This isn't specific to the above poster. A safety rule is not something that can be conveniently ignored in favor of a better score, faster time or because it might cost money. If you don't want to damage your $5,000.00 Open gun, get a better holster, cheaper gun or take up a less active sport. I'm not willing to point my gun at anyone, which is exactly what happens in that split second decision to grab a falling gun, to save the finish on any of my weapons. And I have a few pretty expensive guns. I actually find it a little disturbing that there are so many people that think it's okay?