Best Production Autopistol?

[gm iprod]

Visible mods?

If you polish and port the internal workings to improve smooth and make more reliable then allowed. But if you change the hammer to another brand and or chop bits off that would normally be visible when put on a table in one whole homogenous ready to shoot handgun, then not.

Personally if you removed the single action notch on the hammer that would be against the spirit of the rules, if not the literal wording. Internal or otherwise.

The old "Stock Gun" rules were a little like that and there was two interpretations. One at Bianchi, hence the debacle at the 2003 when bobbed hammers were not allowed one minute then allowed the next on appeal as someone used one last year and it was legal so it is still legal, and the other at the 1999 World Shoot where they were enforced rigorously, thank you very much. Any of the top 10 finishers in stock gun would not have been allowed to shoot with those handguns at the Worlds.

If the firearm had a trigger that was SA / DA out of the box then it should remain that way and meet the trigger rules. If there was a factory available part that would convert one model of a particular firearm to a existing factory model of that same firearm then that would / should be allowed. I don't believe there has been a DAO 686 type handgun out of the S&W factory ever, let alone in sufficient numbers to meet the Prod rules.

This is only the second time around for these rules, lets get some gametime under our belts before we start going off all half cocked on this. We are going to have to shim and trim them over the next few years to allow for errors and or omissions. But for now, shoot the match with something that complies with the rules of NRA / IPSC / USPSA production rules with the 3.5lb trigger rule, and see how you go. Of you then need to make modifications (within the rules as they stand at this or any other time) the so be it.

I suspect that there will be about 10 guys that are clearly going to be pushing for the top money. The rest will need to sort themselves out somewhat between now and the 2011 Cup.

[motorcycle_dan]

help out Motorcycle Dan and his Glock.

Gulp, And I thought getting stuck in Newark Airport over the snow storm was hectic.

Yikes.

Well I did get out to the range yesterday. Burrr it wuz cold. I decided the G34 may become a safe queen. I have a GP100 Rooger that brought me to distinguished revolver. I put it on paper at 50yd and with two hands I can easily group 6" in double action.

I need to work on shooting weak hand revolver. That feels weird.

My Ruger is stock except for having a zillion rounds of ammo shot through it. Pretty dang smooth. I'd guess about 6~7 pound DA pull. Single action has me worried though. Not sure it will hang 3.5 I don't normally use SA but don't want to remove it either. I assume I can have a gunsmith increase the sear angle that would make for a heavier single action? Would that be within the letter and spirit of the rule?

Next controversial question. Since I'll be buying a complete holster/rig....

What is the best/fastest/production legal revolver holster? Since I don't currently have one I'd like to practice and get used to something that I can use in production class. Can I use a CR-Speed hi-torque velcro belt rig?

Edited December 22, 2009 by motorcycle_dan

[Griz]

against the spirit of the rules, if not the literal wording.

If you want to stick to the spirit of the rules, then shoot a Glock 34. The literal rules don't work very well for many other guns, but most non-Glocks can comply with them, though some may need a little filing to get there.

[DWFAN]

Is there any chance we will see some rule modifications for 2010 ? I dont know when these things are decided or when the rules committee (or whatever they call themselves) meets.

[Alan550]

The Action Pistol Rules Committee met earlier in the Fall. The results of that meeting are still unknown. The NRA Rules Committee meets in January to act on the proposed rule changes from the AP Rules Committee. We should hear something by mid-January sometime.

Alan~^~

[DWFAN]

good to know, thanks.

[NRAActionPistol]

The Action Pistol Rules Committee met earlier in the Fall. The results of that meeting are still unknown. The NRA Rules Committee meets in January to act on the proposed rule changes from the AP Rules Committee. We should hear something by mid-January sometime.

Alan~^~

These are the rule changes submitted by the NRA Action Pistol Committee, approved by the NRA Competition Rules Committee and submitted to the NRA Board of Directors for a January 2010 Approval.

Grand Senior Category wil added to NRA Action Pistol Rule 2.2.2.

NRA Action Pistol Rule 3.2.1. Be amended to read - Production Firearm - Holsters must be for carry and every day use. Competition, Race Type and Open Front Holsters are Prohibited.

I have attached the full 2010 NRA Action Pistol Rule book, all the changes made since 2007 are in RED

Merry Christmas & Happy Holiday's to ALL!

Tom...

2010APRules.doc

[Toolguy]

I think it would solve a lot of problems in Production if we made the trigger 3.5 pounds for double action and 2.0 for single action. Most guns

would be in compliance out of the box without needing gunsmithing to meet a 3.5 pound single action rule. 2 pounds is the single

action weight for all the other guns not in Production class.

[DWFAN]

A little disappointing they didnt address the trigger pull weight. It looks like the below was changed and "internal" was taken out.

"The firearm shall have no visible external modifications except as follows"

[NRAActionPistol]

A little disappointing they didnt address the trigger pull weight. It looks like the below was changed and "internal" was taken out.

"The firearm shall have no visible external modifications except as follows"

DWFan.

Here is the 2010 NRA AP Production Rule: 3.2.1 Production:

I personally have learned from competitors NOT to monkey with the rules too much, that is what we are doing. These NRA AP Rules have not even really been tested yet! They were put into effect last Jan 2009, we had less then 30 Production competitors at the Bianchi Cup, while not perfect these rules need to be tried, before we start changing them.

We all know that there is a price to pay for adjusting trigger weights, we need to do everything we can to make the Production Firearm and even playing field, we can not make a Production Revolver & Production Semi Auto Division, we do not have the numbers to justify that. In a perfect world we would like to split Production 3 ways, Semi-Auto, Revolver & Single-Stack, with the amount of people shooting and holding matches, we can't do it.

Shooters in the field need to run and shoot these matches, we will build it and support you in any way that we can, but we can not run matches at the local level. The more people that shoot and want to shoot, will give us justification for change, we can not change for a small group, and we can not change the rules every year either.

3.2.1 Production Firearm - The intent of this rule is to encourage the use of Production Firearms as manufactured and promote NRA Action Pistol Shooting and the “Grass Roots” level. Accordingly, in order to keep this class from becoming and “Equipment Match” Single Action only pistols are prohibited”.

A Production Firearm is a semi-automatic handgun or revolver which is or has been a catalogue item readily available to the general public equipped with factory notch & post sights. All standard safety features of guns must operate properly. The firearm shall have no visible external modifications except as follows:

a)Grips may be replaced or modified to fit a competitors hand or facilitate loading. Checkering, stippling, grip tape and sleeves are permitted.

Barrel length may not exceed 5.35 inches for semi automatic pistols and may not exceed 6 inches for revolvers.

c) Wide "target" style hammers and triggers, if included on the firearm as originally manufactured are permitted.

d) Only open sights may be used. The front sight must be a non-adjustable post sight. The rear sight may be adjustable if the firearm was originally manufactured with an adjustable sight. Sights may be replaced but they must use the original dovetail cuts and must retain the original configuration of the firearm. Fiber optic sights are permitted.

e)Barrels may be replaced with original factory barrels with the same configuration of the original barrel.

f)All production firearms must fire the first shot of every stage double action.

g) Trigger weight may not be less than 3.5 lbs. in any mode.

h) External finishes, either protective or decorative and other non-functional embellishments (such as engraving, inlays or inscriptions) are permitted.

I) Holsters must be designated for carry and suitable for everyday use.

The following firearm modifications are prohibited.

a)Single action only firearms.

b)Custom-shop firearms.

c) Changes in the original factory sight configuration of the firearm, front adjustable sights.

d) Peep, ghost, optical, electronic, Bo-Mar and Aristocrat type sights.

e) Thumb rests, grip or magazine extensions.

f) Compensators or ported, weighted barrels.

g) Competition, Race Type and Open Front Holsters are prohibited.

Happy Holidyas!

Tom...

[DWFAN]

Thanks Tom. I understand the need to not monkey with the rules, and I may have been misinterpreted. I meant to just point out that the rule previously posted/discussed in this thread seems to have been re-worded with "internal" taken out.

The firearm shall have no visible internal or external modifications except as follows.

If Im not correct or am still not understanding someone please let me know.

[Flexmoney]

So, we can monkey around inside...to our heart's content...as long as we meet the trigger pull limit?

[gm iprod]

So, we can monkey around inside...to our heart's content...as long as we meet the trigger pull limit?

YUP!!

[Flexmoney]

I don't think anybody realizes...

[goneracin]

so then what is left thats production? the frame and slide?

I can understand letting the revolvers remove the SA notch, in order to get a revo and a bottom feeder somewhat on the same field, but much more is against the spirit of production IMO. This is gonna get out of hand pretty quickly I would think.

Although on the other hand, I can see policing a "totally stock" setup would be a nightmare as well. if its "stock appearing", thats easy to police, if they have to disassemble all the guns to check legality, oh boy. Of course no one would cheat.....

I seriously doubt I have a snowballs chance, but it would be nice to think equipment isnt a deciding factor in an entry level class...

[Allgoodhits]

I agree that the "...no visible internal or external modifications..." verbiage is vague.

The fact that the rule uses the words "visible" and "internal" seems to indicate that modifications which are visible when the internals are revealed are prohibited. Logically, if they only wanted to prohibit those modifications that were externally visible, NRA would not have mentioned the word "internal" at all and would instead have said something like, "...no externally visible modifications..."

I also think the interpretation allowing someone to convert a DA/SA revolver to DA only appears very questionable. How can it be in the spirit of Production Class to fundamentally alter the mechanism of a firearm in order to make it "legal" for Production Class?

What he said!

[oldtrooper]

In the revolver category what is the most inexpensive production handgun readily available to the general public? Police trade-ins.

How many departments made it a practice to disable the single action notch so the issued side arm would only fire double action?

A bunch.

So a new comer signs up for production and at the equipment check-in is informed, "Thanks for coming but you can't participate".

[ADR]

With all the emphasis on safety, the NRA should encourage that all revolvers used in action pistol competition be modified as DAO. Police departments disabled the SA capability of officers duty revolvers because of some ugly incidents that led to uglier incidents due to the practice of holding suspects at gunpoint with the hammer cocked back and and "booger picker" on the boom switch. Revolver DAO is a safety enhancement and match referees need to think of it that way.

[mpolans]

I see several potential problems in the rules written below. See comments in black italics and red highlights. The way the rules are written, particularly with regard to sights, in combination with "double-action" requirements, and the different maximum barrel lengths could easily lead to an arms race where the ultimate gun is a S&W 686 with an adjustable rear sight converted to DAO with a heavily worked on trigger to get the double action pull as close to 3.5lbs as possible. And why all the fuss about adjustable front sights? Has that ever really been a problem? It seems that anything that could be done with an adjustable front sight could easily be done by writing down a prescribed number of clicks and simply adjusting your rearsight between distances/strings. It only serves to eliminate those few guns (some 686s?) that came stock with adjustable front sights.

Here is the 2010 NRA AP Production Rule: 3.2.1 Production:

3.2.1 Production Firearm - The intent of this rule is to encourage the use of Production Firearms as manufactured and promote NRA Action Pistol Shooting and the “Grass Roots” level. Accordingly, in order to keep this class from becoming and “Equipment Match” Single Action only pistols are prohibited”.

A Production Firearm is a semi-automatic handgun or revolver which is or has been a catalogue item readily available to the general public equipped with factory notch & post sights. All standard safety features of guns must operate properly. The firearm shall have no visible external modifications except as follows:

*What's the definition of "readily available to the general public?" Is there a minimum time or minimum production or sold number (e.g., must have been available for retail sale for at least 6 months prior to a match, must have sold at least 5,000 at retail, excluding police/military/government sales, etc)? Must the item have been merely available somewhere in the world, or specifically available in the U.S.? For example, if a certain Tanfoglio model was readily available in Italy, but not imported at all to the U.S., is it still legal?

a)Grips may be replaced or modified to fit a competitors hand or facilitate loading. Checkering, stippling, grip tape and sleeves are permitted.

Barrel length may not exceed 5.35 inches for semi automatic pistols and may not exceed 6 inches for revolvers.

c) Wide "target" style hammers and triggers, if included on the firearm as originally manufactured are permitted.

d) Only open sights may be used. The front sight must be a non-adjustable post sight. The rear sight may be adjustable if the firearm was originally manufactured with an adjustable sight. Sights may be replaced but they must use the original dovetail cuts and must retain the original configuration of the firearm. Fiber optic sights are permitted.

*The above restriction would severely disadvantage CZ 75s, CZ SP-01s, Springfield XDs, S&W MP9s, or Beretta 92s as they are not available with adjustable sights; the inability to retrofit adjustable sights on these guns would render them virtually uncompetitive.

e)Barrels may be replaced with original factory barrels with the same configuration of the original barrel.

*This appears to limit replacing a factory barrel with a factory barrel. Is that a typo? If you can only replace the factory barrel with an identical factory barrel, why even list it as a possible external modification??? I'm really hoping this is a typo and not as illogical as it appears to be.

f)All production firearms must fire the first shot of every stage double action.

*"Double action" isn't defined anywhere. Strictly speaking, this rule appears to eliminate striker-fired guns (all Glocks, Springfield XDs, and S&W MP9/40 series), which would mean virtually all popular would-be production guns other than a CZ 75 and CZ SP-01 or a S&W 686.

g) Trigger weight may not be less than 3.5 lbs. in any mode.

*This has the potential to eliminate all DA/SA guns including the CZ 75, CZ SP-01, and S&W 686 . . . unless a competitor elects to try to boost the weight of their stock single action trigger (by mere spring replacement, if they're lucky) or by fundamentally altering the function of their firearm by removing the SA capability (now legal, since internal modifications are now unlimited). So this is really "production," right?

h) External finishes, either protective or decorative and other non-functional embellishments (such as engraving, inlays or inscriptions) are permitted.

I) Holsters must be designated for carry and suitable for everyday use.

*The word "designated" indicates there is a list of approved holsters, which is fortunate, since the wording alone is incredibly vague and leaves a lot to discretion. For example, I have heard of folks carrying concealed in a Safariland 007 and a Limcat . . . definitely not the norm, but they found it "suitable." That said, I did not see any such list in the 2010 rules; is there an additional appendix with the list of designated holsters coming out soon? When? How do manufacturers get their holsters on the designated list?

The following firearm modifications are prohibited.

a)Single action only firearms.

b)Custom-shop firearms.

c) Changes in the original factory sight configuration of the firearm, front adjustable sights.

d) Peep, ghost, optical, electronic, Bo-Mar and Aristocrat type sights.

*What's the definition of Bomar "type?" Does this only include sites that look like a Bomar? Does it only include sights that fit in a Bomar cut? Does it mean all adjustable sights of a certain height/width? All click-adjustable sights? It's a little vague, particularly in light of the fact that sights are one of the things specifically allowed to be changed in Rule 3.2.1(d)

e) Thumb rests, grip or magazine extensions.

f) Compensators or ported, weighted barrels.

g) Competition, Race Type and Open Front Holsters are prohibited.

Happy Holidyas!

Tom...

Edited December 23, 2009 by mpolans

[Action Pistolero]

I had a question earlier this year concerning if it was legal to disable the single action notch in a revolver. He contacted the head referee and got a ruling on it.

What did they decide?

He decided that the single action notch can be removed. I've been shooting it that way all year.

It seems that we have been down this road before. I tried to find the correspondence between Tom and I concerning the referee's ruling but have had no luck so far. Tom, HELP!

So they took the word "internal" out of the rules. That means to me that whatever is inside the frame and not visible from the outside is fair game. Could the cylinder be cut for moon clips? No. Could you put a Storm Lake barrel in a Glock? No.

[gm iprod]

mpolans, you have hit the readily available issue on the head.

There are guns available in the US and not available elsewhere (in some cases not legal for private ownership) and as you state the opposite is also likely.

I think we have to go with what we have for this upcoming match and make adjustments as these issues arise at the match. If a competitor genuinely believes he has a gun that is legal, he or she should contact the NRA (Tom specifically in the first instance) and ASK!

The other items you raise are valid and will most probably be addressed over the next year or so. But we need time to see this through.

S&W M&P9 is available with adjustable sights I have one, and so are the CZ75's contact Angus Hobdell at CZ USA, the CZ75 SP-01 has three variants that have adjustable sights. You can fit the CZ85 sights to the firearm if you have the correct cut or there are after market combat type sights (Millett I think) that will fit. Again this comes back to the "list" again this will be worked through. This is only the second time that Production is to be shot at the Cup. Most guys last time used guns that met USPSA rules for Production and the NRA 3.5lb rule. If you did that I can not see a way for you to be pitched out.

My S&W M&P9 has a trigger that goes at about 4.5lb at it's lightest and my Dads stock CZ75 is well past that. If you get a CZ75 SP-01 stock out of the box it is well over 3.5lb out of the box in SA mode. I have three at my shop that go no less than 4lb SA mode. They can be lightened within the IPSC and USPSA rules to about 2 1/4lb using std springs that are available (most of the time) from CZ USA. They meet the rules over mods but do not over trigger weight

Double Action first shot. Again we are still learning, improperly worded, first shot should not be fired in single action mode and all safe action / striker fired type guns shall be fired from the normal first shot configuration. Seeing as a number of Glock 17's were used last year I think we understand that it will be fine. They have no single action mode and the trigger requires somewhat more than 3.5lb to fire, therefore legal.

Holsters, no race holsters is also as vague. I think that anything "designed" for everyday carry or use is meant. Again poor wording. At the nostalgia match (as shot in 1970's) which essentially (except for the old time 1911 guns) ran pretty much this way. If you turn up with anything like a 012 Safariland or CR speed and similar you ain't using it. There is not approved list as many were using really really old holsters that had not seen the light of day since Brian had hair.

Sights. Anything that looks like it could be used for daily use is probably fine. But a Bomar or Aristocrat rib and or large purely target style sights are out. An old Millet or Novak carry type sights that are adjustable are in. As long as they do not need to have the slide machined to fit.

Barrels. Like IPSC non factory barrel replacements are not allowed. The barrel is clearly visible from the exterior of the firearm. A Kart or KKM barrel in a Glock is out. But a Glock barrel from Glock is in.

At present we are trying to avoid the mire that is the IPSC Production rule book, that is starting to look like the ISSF rule book. But I can see if we head down this road and someone does something stupid and goes against the spirit of the idea then that is where we will finish. Shame, but human nature is to see and take every advantage and then screw it all up.

Guns that would be legal that I can think of.

H&K USP, but not all the flashy tacticool ones.

SIG P226 and other iterations.

S&W M&P

Walther P99AS

Tanfoglio Force.

CZ75, 85, SP-01, 97

STI GP6

Ruger SR9

Ruger P85 etc

Glock, nearly everything 9mm or bigger.

Springfield XD

Beretta 92, 96, PX4, 90-2

Anything on the IPSC list that meets 3.5lb.

Most revolvers.

[Chuck Anderson]

It has been discussed many times that the CZ will likely not meet the trigger pull restriction after much use. There is one shooter that mentioned his out of the box SA pull was 3 lb 11oz. Thats only 3 oz from the limit. I know for a fact that with use (and not much use) the CZ pull weight will drop. Some a 1/2 pound some a full pound. This is one of the reasons they're so popular for IPSC. You can get a great light trigger without a trigger job.

There is a really simple way to word the rule to include not just striker fired guns as competetive but DA/SA as well. And it would elimiate everyone doing the SA modifications. Use a two step trigger pull process. If the gun has more than one function, i.e. DA/SA it must have a 2lb trigger pull in SA. If it's striker fired or only has one mode 3.5 lbs. Nothing changes for those people who have already purchased Production guns but it will open up a lot more possibilities in the spirit of the Division. I'm not surprised only 30 people competed in 2009. If the only competetive guns were striker fired. It severly limits the shooter pool.

Also as far as the restriction on aftermarket sigths that really needs to be cleaned up. Does the restriction against Bo-Mar sights exclude guns like the Para LDA which come with a Bo-Mar clone? Or is it meant to prohibit rib type sights. If it's the latter (which I suspect), the rule is written way too broad. If it's the former, why? You can have Dawson adjustable sights on Glock, but not a nearly identical functioning sight on a Para? What am I missing?

[Action Pistolero]

Chuck,

Aristocrat has a 3 position adjustable sight. This is offered as just a rear sight or a full rib. Bomar offered the same type of rib. The rib is what's being eliminated from the rules. As you know, a regular Bomar adjustable rear sight does not have the ability to have 3 different settings so it is legal.

The gun that won Production last year was striker fired but if you look at the results they showed a different story. Revolvers actually did better than the striker fired guns. There was talk of separating revolvers and autos but with all the confusion going on I'm not sure anymore. If they get 50 or more shooters in Prod then they probably would.

The rule about barrel replacements is valid. If replacing the factory barrel with another factory barrel was not allowed what would you do when the barrel was shot out, buy another gun? Let's face it, unless they look at the serial number on the barrel and check it against the one on the frame they wouldn't know that it had been replaced. In the case of a Glock, however, they would be able to tell that it wasn't a Glock barrel.

Great post, Richard. You are one of the few who could line up all the Prod type guns on the counter and weigh all the triggers. Also, have all the knowledge to rat off the guns that could be used.

Edited December 23, 2009 by Action Pistolero

[Chuck Anderson]

Chuck,

Aristocrat has a 3 position adjustable sight. This is offered as just a rear sight or a full rib. Bomar offered the same type of rib. The rib is what's being eliminated from the rules. As you know, a regular Bomar adjustable rear sight does not have the ability to have 3 different settings so it is legal.

I know what a rib sight is. I've got an Aristocrat sight on my PPC revolver. But this is the rule

d) Peep, ghost, optical, electronic, Bo-Mar and Aristocrat type sights.

It doesn't say Bo-Mar and Aristocrat Rib type sights. Is a standard Bo-Mar adjustable that comes on dozens of 1911's a Bo-Mar type sight? Well of course it is. It says so right on the side of the sight. If a preclusion of rib type sights is the intent, then say that. Right now, how can you say that rule doesn't exclude standard Bo-Mar adjustables?

As far as barrels I'm totally on board with that rule and understand it.

As far as revo's doing better last year, I'm guessing all must have been modified internally with the SA notch removed (not a modification likely to generate interest from new shooters), and most were likely dual entries. A competitor in Metallic or Open who also entered Production wtih a gun they already had. How many were unique or new entries? If you're goal is attracting new shooters, then why not make the majority of guns competitive on equal footing rather than a specific class that is much easier to run with. That is how to generate interest and get new people involved.

[Griz]

referee's ruling

This is another pet peeve of mine... Where are the rulings posted? If you are not on a first name basis with Tom or one of the top shooters, I don't think you have access to "insider" info and rule clarifications and could be in for surprises when you get to the Cup and discover that they don't follow the published rules in Columbia.