Duane Thomas Posted November 2, 2002 Share Posted November 2, 2002 "Besides... all the guys who bought .40 caliber guns and made the .45 obsolete" "Obsolete"? Did I miss something - when did that happen? I guess Rob Leatham DIDN'T win the Factory Nats with a .45 just a few months ago. The .45 ACP is far and away the favorite Lim-10 caliber, at least at the matches I attend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamBam Posted November 2, 2002 Share Posted November 2, 2002 Take it easy Duane... the reference was strictly to "Limited" class and its a fact that in 1999 use of the .45 was down to 15% of the Nationals field. Luckily the Limited-10 division came along and gave the old .45 workhorse that started this whole game a place to shine again! But I digress.... the issue here is how to package the 9mm major to be acceptable in Open class and beneficial to those shooters who prefer it. Sure we don't "NEED" to add 9mm major, but we don't need corvettes that go 172 mph either! Its just that in America we have the freedom to choose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted November 2, 2002 Share Posted November 2, 2002 Pat, I don't hear too many people standing up and asking 38super to be major in limited. Why would 9x19 be any different? I just don't see the problem with removing the OAL restrictions for the 9x19. But what do I know my ducks are crooked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted November 3, 2002 Share Posted November 3, 2002 Patrick, There are plenty of supers without supported barrels and a bunch of cheap junk .40's so that hot round in a bad gun just doesn't wash. The difference in brass is a hell of a savings. 80+ bucks for 1000 super compared to 10 for once fired 9mm. I bought 10,000 9mm for about what you'll pay for 1000 supers. For us normal guys that don't get free stuff and have other mouth's to feed that can be the difference between shooting or sitting home from the big matches. The data is there now we just have to change some old ideas and closed minds. This only applies to open and has absolutely no bearing on Limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeeter Posted November 4, 2002 Share Posted November 4, 2002 bambam at the triton site they list a 135 at 1180 fps from a 4 inch barrel i've got as much as 150 fps more from my 6 inch guns even 50 gets you a major load. over at the corbon sight i couldn't find the 147 grain load so i don't know any more. but the 125 load is 1250 out of a 4 incher. so i bet that it would work to out of a 6 inch gun. then last in a 1998 issue of combat arms chuck karwan got the corbon 115 grain load to go over 1500 fps for a 172 power factor.( even got 1440 with the 135 grain 40 load 194 factor) this seems to be the norm for all loads that i've choro'd out of my guns with 6 inch barrels. can it be done safe with shorter lengths i'll leave to others but i'd do it if it legal for uspsa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Dame Posted November 4, 2002 Share Posted November 4, 2002 Everyone is talking about how the 9mm will make major with published loads. But were those loads fired out of guns with compensators and or ported barrels? Also the whole OAL issue makes absolutly no sense to me, why does the USPSA have to worry about being blamed for someone elses dumb-ass mistake. Is it the gas stations fault if you put desiel in to an unleaded car? Hell know, so why would they be at fault if some loads a hot round into a gun tht can't take it. Sure there is a much greater chance on injury but if I happen to put a full blown 10mm into my .40 and end up with parts of my gun in my face its my fault and no one elses. Anyway, why would you fire a round out of your gun if you don't know what it is? As long as the 9mm can make major in a compensated, ported gun while being as safe as the 38 super, which from my understanding was know to blow up from time to time when IPSC'rs started using it, why not let them shoot it. Any decision which will allow more shooters in to the sport is a good one. We all know what we are getting into once we start reloading so there should not be any question of Liability involved. Good luck with your efforts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted November 5, 2002 Share Posted November 5, 2002 Mike, That is our arguement too. Since you agree and anyone else that agrees, please contact your Area Director and tell him you want to see this changed. Several of the AD's last time used the "nobody from my area contacted me about this so I voted no". Please contact them as the meeting is in 11 days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted November 6, 2002 Share Posted November 6, 2002 I contacted my area Director. He is not in favor of lifting the restrictions on OAL. I heard reasons from how many times the brass can be reloaded to non-uspsa shooters picking up loaded rounds left behind from matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamBam Posted November 6, 2002 Share Posted November 6, 2002 John - try again with your AD and let the question be one that no reasonable person could say no to. Remember, the 9mm major has been legal at the 1.250" OAL going back to the 175 power factor. All we want is to reduce the overall length some amount to match the new lower 165 power factor. It would leave all liabilities and safety restrictions previously approved the same, just scaled to match the new PF. Who could be against that? I am also trying to find the internal chamber dimensions for the 9mm from SAAMI, and the magazine dimensions from some of the major players, and maybe we can show that at a certain length the hot rounds would not even fit into a stock gun. Run that by him and see what excuse he searches for next. These guys want to be our representatives, but they seem to forget that we know the sport too, and we can tell when they are twisting/ignoring the real facts to push some personal agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted November 6, 2002 Share Posted November 6, 2002 I'll let you know what his response is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted November 7, 2002 Share Posted November 7, 2002 Last time his excuse was nobody from his area contacted him to express interest in the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 He is saying I am the only one pushing the issue. But he is now at least thinking about it a little more than the first time I emailed him. He does think that for some reason there will be more information after the Shot Show on the matter. Not sure why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamBam Posted November 8, 2002 Share Posted November 8, 2002 Then please pass the word around to your other shooting buddies John to speak up. They don't have to want to use it themselves... they just have to oppose banning something legitimate from a fellow shooter who feels the need for a new Open blaster!! If you hear any decent reasons why not, please let me know so I can do debunk those ancient myths. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 Just got word! Major 9 is in. Not sure about any restrictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamBam Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 From our Area 8 Director -- "The BOD had rescinded the 1990 resolution." "In consideration of the interest of the membership, the Board further approved the release of this information prior to the official posting of the minutes of the meeting." ---- I would bet more info will follow on the members web page before too long. Hope to see you guys discover the merits behind the revitalized Major-9 and score some major wins!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 BamBam, They just dumped the old BOD ruling? That would mean no OAL restictions then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BamBam Posted November 18, 2002 Share Posted November 18, 2002 That is my impression. We obtained a few boxes of 9x19 Triton ammunition to test and sent the results to the BOD meeting. When run through a 5-1/2" barrel the Triton stuff made major at 124 and 135 grains (they only use a 4.25" barrel for published data). We could not get a reading under cloudy skies with the 115 grain stuff. Still.... hard to argue length when hot factory 9x19 ammo can make major. And remember, the 9x19 is the same as the 9x21 when loaded the same way to the same length, and the 9x21 has made major for years even at 175. A wise shooter should already know to reload cautiously, watch for pressure signs, maybe stick to a 124 bullet as minimum, and start loading as long as the gun will chamber. I think USPSA might have just decided to stay out of the reloading management business and to leave the responsibility for SAAMI guidelines up to the shooters themselves. The 14th edition rulebook says 9x19 is OK for Open class, and that 165PF makes major. Maybe the BOD decided to leave it up to the shooters to create the combination that works for them at their own risk. Just some thoughts. We'll have to wait for the full text from the BOD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeeter Posted November 20, 2002 Share Posted November 20, 2002 it's great to see some common since coming back. over on glock talk they say winchester ranger +p loads and hirenberger(?) also makes major. i think it's time that i gave open a shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 now that 9mm major is legal, what's the point? is it just because you can leave the brass on the ground? do it perform better than 38 super? i think it will cause more problems than its worth. i need some insight. lynn (i'm sticking to 38 super) jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 Lynn, I don't know what all the fuss is about. It's been legal to use 9x19mm for Major in IPSC Open Division for years and the only restriction is a minimum 120 grain bullet weight. Despite this, 38 Super still rules the roost in Open. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlos Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 Thank you Vince: I think you can confirm that the REST OF THE WORLD has not experienced exploding 9x19s and disasterous lawsuits from major 9mm - what indeed has all the fuss been about? A secret rule now rescinded? The only thing keeping reasonable length major 9mm out of US competition since 1990 seems to have been the influence of that has-been old man, Jeff Cooper (thanks for getting us started, Jeff; now sit down and shut up you old fart) and the dinosaurs that still insist on following his advice to the letter. Hey, I've had fun shooting the L10 game w/ a .45 - so why the U.S. attitude when it came to open class? While I'm at it, lets add Major/minor to production or dump PF all together. Rant mode off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted November 21, 2002 Share Posted November 21, 2002 Carlos, Col. Cooper had nothing to do with it. If he had his choice we would all be shooting .45 hardball. In his defense back when he started all this we didn't have the great bullet selection we have today. I'll take a hydra-shok in 9 over .45 fmj in a gunfight any day, but if it comes down to FMJ's only give me the biggest one you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krag Posted November 22, 2002 Share Posted November 22, 2002 According to Robin Taylor at USPSA, 9mm Major is now legal but you must still use a .40 caliber or larger to make Major in Limited. This means that 9mm Major will only be practical in Open - so what difference does it make? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeeter Posted November 22, 2002 Share Posted November 22, 2002 the only thing 9mm has going for it is cheap brass. and thats good enough for me. i hate to pick up brass at the range. i never seem to find it all, some how it miss's the tarp. if 40 brass cost $50 a thousand i'd be looking all day. thankfully it's 10 to 15per so i don't mind lossing some. i'll like 9mm even better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lynn jones Posted November 22, 2002 Share Posted November 22, 2002 i posted this on the uspsa web page, before they changed back to the old format. i believe the gunsmith will be happy for all the new business. if i were just starting out i might consider using 9mm major (9x19). the idea of cheap drop and leave brass sounds good to me. lynn (what's next) jones Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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