hearthco Posted July 19, 2009 Share Posted July 19, 2009 I just got back from the range from testing Randy's latest creation. The new and improved Apex hammer for the 617. Pull weight tested at 6 lb. 7oz. I fired 200 CCI mini mags in about 20 minutes. 100% ignition, and a much more pleasent time shooting the rimfire. I think Randy has another winner. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Koester Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 I just got back from the range from testing Randy's latest creation. The new and improved Apex hammer for the 617. Pull weight tested at 6 lb. 7oz. I fired 200 CCI mini mags in about 20 minutes. 100% ignition, and a much more pleasent time shooting the rimfire. I think Randy has another winner. Dave Can the gun still be shot single action? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Very interesting. I have always found reducing pull weight on a 617 (and keeping it reliable) to be quite a challenge. Dave, what is different about Randy's hammer that allows the pull weight to be reduced? My guess is that it has a longer hammer fall. Making the hammer fall faster doesn't seem to work with rimfires, so about the only other thing you could change is to make it fall further. Am I right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Very interesting. I have always found reducing pull weight on a 617 (and keeping it reliable) to be quite a challenge. Dave, what is different about Randy's hammer that allows the pull weight to be reduced? My guess is that it has a longer hammer fall. Making the hammer fall faster doesn't seem to work with rimfires, so about the only other thing you could change is to make it fall further. Am I right? Or make it heavier. The MIM hammers are much lighter than the same size forged hammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubber Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 The hammer spur looks more like a shark fin. That boy is just to close to the ocean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Or make it heavier. The MIM hammers are much lighter than the same size forged hammer. Well, normally making the hammer heavier just makes it slower, and normally that's the last thing you want to do with a revolver hammer. But rimfires are different in some way that (to my knowledge) nobody has ever explained, because cutting the weight off a 617 hammer definitely does not work like it does with a centerfire rig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toolguy Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Maybe most of the weight is at the top where it hits the firing pin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJDOUBLETAP Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Maybe most of the weight is at the top where it hits the firing pin. Looks like that's the case. I'm curious to see what the whole thing looks like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom E Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Maybe most of the weight is at the top where it hits the firing pin. That's where the weight has the most effect, farthest from the pivot. Looks like a maximum amount of metal in that hammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hearthco Posted July 20, 2009 Author Share Posted July 20, 2009 I just got back from the range from testing Randy's latest creation. The new and improved Apex hammer for the 617. Pull weight tested at 6 lb. 7oz. I fired 200 CCI mini mags in about 20 minutes. 100% ignition, and a much more pleasent time shooting the rimfire. I think Randy has another winner. Dave Can the gun still be shot single action? Randy's design removes the single action notch. Also, Its a bunch heaver, and Randy specifies extra material for fitting. I will be taking it out to redraw Randy's mods into the cad geo tomorrow. If he dont mind, Ill post a picture. He' s to close to the ocean and its always cold in Baywood Park Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underlug Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 I just got back from the range from testing Randy's latest creation. The new and improved Apex hammer for the 617. Pull weight tested at 6 lb. 7oz. I fired 200 CCI mini mags in about 20 minutes. 100% ignition, and a much more pleasent time shooting the rimfire. I think Randy has another winner. Dave Can the gun still be shot single action? Randy's design removes the single action notch. Also, Its a bunch heaver, and Randy specifies extra material for fitting. I will be taking it out to redraw Randy's mods into the cad geo tomorrow. If he dont mind, Ill post a picture. He' s to close to the ocean and its always cold in Baywood Park Dave Is it for sale yet??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Interesting. So what we're learning is that centerfire primers pop better with the fast slap of a lightened hammer, but a slower crushing blow works better to set off the priming compound of a rimfire cartridge. I still suspect the hammer throw is longer. I have a feeling the lack of a cocking notch is related to that. Dave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hearthco Posted July 20, 2009 Author Share Posted July 20, 2009 (edited) Interesting. So what we're learning is that centerfire primers pop better with the fast slap of a lightened hammer, but a slower crushing blow works better to set off the priming compound of a rimfire cartridge.I still suspect the hammer throw is longer. I have a feeling the lack of a cocking notch is related to that. Dave? Those ?s are best left to Randy. I can tell you all kinds of stuff bout 1911 hammers, but I leave all the round gun stuff to Randy. Im just the guy with the comparator and wire edms. We have just the 1st 4 hammers right now, I think Randy wants to do a couple more guns before he makes them available. Edited July 20, 2009 by hearthco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Lee Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Hi guys, It's been a while since I've been able to post. I will try to answer some of the questions about the hammer. Mike, to answer your question, the hammer arc has been increased. All my hammers have no SA cut. This was in part for liability reasons for the spurless design. With the new hammer, I wanted the maximum amount of mass driving the firing pin to crush the rim. I will post more on my rimfire theories after I get away from the bench. Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 There he is!! Randy, we look forward to hearing more from you on this interesting topic, and I would definitely be interested in trying out one of those 617 hammers when it hits the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adweisbe Posted July 20, 2009 Share Posted July 20, 2009 Awesome stuff Randy. I have been holding off on a 617 because I wanted a few tuned centerfire guns first. This makes the rim fire option much more attractive now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hearthco Posted July 21, 2009 Author Share Posted July 21, 2009 (edited) Maybe most of the weight is at the top where it hits the firing pin. Looks like that's the case. I'm curious to see what the whole thing looks like. The imperfections you see are due to my stupidity when running the hammers thru the cnc dept. They will not be on the production versions. Dave Sorry bout the double pics Edited July 21, 2009 by hearthco Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viggen Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Maybe most of the weight is at the top where it hits the firing pin. Looks like that's the case. I'm curious to see what the whole thing looks like. The imperfections you see are due to my stupidity when running the hammers thru the cnc dept. They will not be on the production versions. Dave Sorry bout the double pics Wonderful that it has arrived. Is it intended as a "drop-in" or will Randy need to fit it to the gun? The other question, Will it fit the older K-22 6-shot as well as the 617's? - if you happen to know......thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregg K Posted July 21, 2009 Share Posted July 21, 2009 Randy If you want to see if it's possible to break one of the new hammers you can send it to me for testing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
41mag Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Very cool Randy! Put me on the list for one also when there ready. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Lee Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 So here is what I have figured out so far. The mechanics of setting off rimfire ammo is vastly different than a centerfire. As Mike has mentioned, the light hammers do not offer and advantage when it comes to rimfires. I haven't measured the rimfire case thickness, but I do believe it is sunstantially harder and thicker than the primer cup of a centerfire pistol primer. Another factor is that on a centerfire, the surface area of the primer is much larger and therefore will have a better chance of deforming with a quick sharp blow from a fast (lightened) hammer. Especially when you consider that the center of the primer cup is essentially unsupported and will yield until the anvil offers it's counterposing force-which results in ignition. The rims in the rimfire have to be more resistant to ignition because it is far more likely that a dropped cartridge will strike on the rim (where the priming compound resides). It is a remote(but it does happen) chance that a dropped CF round will hit just right to detonate it's primer. To add to the complexity, we are also having to fight deforming or crushing a curved surface out on the rim's edge. In terms that my wee brain can conceptualize, I think of 2 pieces of sheet metal of identical size and dimension. on one , I leave it flat and and only support it at it's perimeter. I can use a round punch and hammer and mark the center pretty easily. The entire sheet will yield and deflect to some degree when I hit it. The other piece I will bend into a "U" shape. If I try to hit the punch out at the edge, the punch tends to slip or glance to some degree. The other thing is that I will find that it requires a greater amount of force to get that u-shaped metal to deform or yield to the same degree as the flat piece. A curved surface distributes force better than a flat surface. The brass has some yield strength that must be overcome in order to deform and crush the priming compound inside. It became clear that a heavier hammer was better at achieving ignition. I increased the hammer throw or arc to help muster as much momentum as I could eek out of the system. The hammer foot is longer so that it can be fitted to the individual gun for maximum travel. I do not know if it will fit a K-22 as I have not checked. This hammer will definitely require fitting, and I am attempting to write fitting instructions now. Gregg K, if anyone is capable of breaking this hammer, I am confident it is you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CJDOUBLETAP Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Interesting, I might have to try one of those out... Thanks for input Randy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carmoney Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 When Randy's original hammer was introduced, many people had the impression that they simply had to drop the hammer in the gun, and it would magically create a dramatic reduction in the trigger pull. This misapprehension was multiplied when a photo and little blurb about the hammer was published in American Handgunner. Of course, in order to actually derive the benefit of the lightened hammer, you have to adjust the spring tensions lighter--which the lightened hammer allows. I think it's safe to assume the same will be true with the "Randy Rimfire" hammer as well. The new hammer will not automatically reduce the trigger pull, but will allow an extra reduction in the trigger pull weight while still maintaining reasonable ignition reliability. In other words, you can't just buy one of these things and just stick it in there and expect it to do something. It's not often you see anything truly new in the world of the revolver. If this concept works as advertised, it's a real advancement for us. Nice work outta you, Randy Lee! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flork Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 Man, Randy is just pure awesome when it come to his wheel guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Lee Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Thanks Guys, And thanks for your input Mike! The AH article was a mixed blessing. Anyone who has gone to the SHOT Show knows fully operational firearms are not allowed on the show floor, so the author took some creative license when he wrote the article. And it is very true that the hammer will ALLOW the pulls to be reduced, but the installation in and of itself will not guarantee the same degree of pull reduction as Mr. Hearth has on his 617. I am still experimenting with ammo types, and I do believe that some brands of ammo may be easier to ignite than CCI. This means that the gun could be run at a lighter pull weight. Keeping my fingers crossed anyways... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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