CocoBolo Posted July 6, 2009 Author Share Posted July 6, 2009 Ok, lets settle the score on the Ultimate mag. If you are a C class shooter with no chance to win a stage having the extra rounds won't make that much difference to you. You could beat your nemisis old Roy but not the big dawgs. Now in the hands of a GM and I personally saw Manny Bragg win a 24 round stage at the 2009 double tap by having that extra capacity and knowing a little math. Yes he had 23, the stage was 24 rounds, he was one short. Not taking the shot cost a max of 15 points the -10 + the 5 points he could have gotten. He shot the stage in under 8 seconds, so in order to break even (the hit factor was 15) he would have had to reload and take the shot in under 1 second. I'm with him it wasn't worth the risk. I'm keeping it on the list, I won't try to run the full capacity in a stage but I will try to go 22 rounds if things stack up that way. Most of the time even with 20 I only plan for 16 or a spot in a big stage that makes making it to the end guranteed. If I were a GM going to the nationals, Like my Visa Card I wouldn't leave home without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I submit that you guys haven't shot the right 6" gun yet. They come in more than one flavor just like 5" guns.... I've shot a couple. I haven't shot them enough to be completely profficient with them. I'm not saying don't get a 6", I'm just saying 6" isn't the only way to win. There are a lot of shooters that like it, and a lot that don't. If 6" guns were the only way to go, why aren't more guys on the Super Squad shooting them? A lot of it will depend on your shooting style. Fast hosers, will do better with a light fast gun, more deliberate shooters will tend to like the 6" and get more benefit from it. So if the 6" is so much superior to the 5 Inch, where is your 7" gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Ok, lets settle the score on the Ultimate mag. If you are a C class shooter with no chance to win a stage having the extra rounds won't make that much difference to you. You could beat your nemisis old Roy but not the big dawgs. Now in the hands of a GM and I personally saw Manny Bragg win a 24 round stage at the 2009 double tap by having that extra capacity and knowing a little math.Yes he had 23, the stage was 24 rounds, he was one short. Not taking the shot cost a max of 15 points the -10 + the 5 points he could have gotten. He shot the stage in under 8 seconds, so in order to break even (the hit factor was 15) he would have had to reload and take the shot in under 1 second. I'm with him it wasn't worth the risk. I'm keeping it on the list, I won't try to run the full capacity in a stage but I will try to go 22 rounds if things stack up that way. Most of the time even with 20 I only plan for 16 or a spot in a big stage that makes making it to the end guranteed. If I were a GM going to the nationals, Like my Visa Card I wouldn't leave home without it. I would say the opposite is actually true. The GM will get less benefit out of a super high cap mag than the C class shooter. GM shooters will be able to better analyze a stage to determine the best spot to reload and they are less likely to blow a reload. They also reload faster than a C class shooter. If you're running in C class and miss winning you Division by 15 points, could a big mag have made the difference? Maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 I submit that you guys haven't shot the right 6" gun yet. They come in more than one flavor just like 5" guns.... Howard, I am just relating what I have seen. I know you are gung-ho on them and that you feel they work well for you. (and I am sure they do) One of the guns that comes to mind was built by you. Another, which I've handled...and I'd judge as well built and proportioned...was built by Sailor Custom. I'm not going off me shooting them, I am going off of watching others shoot them. I have observed that they are slow getting back on target and they have to "muscle" the gun around. Then again, I always put much of the shooting on the "shooter" part of the system. So, perhaps they just never got tuned into their guns properly. Some shooters can make most anything work. Most shooters, from what I have seen over the years, would benefit from as stable of a platform as they can get. (I say this about the Open guns too.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear23 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Sounds like a good gun. Lose the tungsten guide rod. You really don't need the weight, they are bricks already. the ultimate gun is only limited by the shooter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 (edited) Chuck, a 7" gun isn't feasible, the pivot point of the barrel locking and unlocking gets too far from the fulcrum point for one, and two the timing of getting the bullet out of the barrel with the resulting loss of pressure before the lugs start to unlock gets extremely tight. 500 of them would be a huge issue.... 6" guns come in really light and fast or heavy and stable, my 6" can weigh as little as 32 ounces and as much as 38 with simple parts changes. I can change static weight, reciprocating weight and combination's of both. If desired it wouldn't take much at all to make one that was well over 50 ounces with a light slide. The RIGHT gun for everyone is out there. Flex, I hear you. But..... The ONLY difference between a 5" and 6" gun that is necessary is an inch of sight radius one way or the other, otherwise they can have the EXACT same weight, balance point, cycling speed, recoil, you name it and it can be matched. I have a bad tendency to shoot with really soft hands and that can make the gun look a lot slower, but that is all me. With a proper grip my gun is extremely flat and soft yet will still cycle in the .05-.06 range. EDIT: My next open gun is going to be a good bit heavier than the one I have now, so we are in agreement there. I don't see how giving up an inch of sight radius when all else is equal makes sense, but that is just my opinion. I also think that the reason you don't see a lot of 6" guns on the super squads yet is because those guys have a pair and a spare 5" guns already, and can win with them if they shoot a solid match? The investment to replace several guns is a huge cost. For the average weekend hacker, like me, a 6" gun is worth the cost. Edited July 6, 2009 by HSMITH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 There was a time when many people said 6" guns weren't feasible too. I know darn well it's possible to get a gun that long to run because there are some out there. Not many, but I've seen a few full custom guns with 7 inch slides. Yes 500 would be an issue, but it was with 6" guns too. The difference for me when shooting a 6" gun is the amount of perceived time it takes to index that extra inch of barrel lined up. For me when I'm going fast I just get the front sight between the rear blades somewhere. That takes longer with a 6" gun. You get a better shot, but the perception is still there for me. I'm not telling anyone to not buy a 6", I'm just saying there is another option. You're never going to convince me that 6" is the ONLY way to go. As far as the super squad goes, they do have a lot invested in 5" guns. I guarantee that most would be willing to swap and put another top end on their gun in about 10 minutes if there was a guaranteed improvement in performance. You're telling me that guys who spend 10's of thousands of dollars travelling to major matches every year wouldn't spend a thousand or two (if they couldn't get it done even cheaper through sponsors) to win a match instead of coming in 2nd? These guys don't handicap themselves with their equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ong45 Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Here is a video of a 20 round stage...without much room to reload...where Manny's extra rounds came in handy (2 make-up shots): [correction: after watching the video again...and not going off memory ...that looks like a 22 round stage, no make-ups...with little room to reload] Don't know if you noticed , he got a noshoot/ mike on the last array. Dance with the devil and all that. I haven't spent much time shooting a 6 inch limited gun so don't really have much of an opinion, but as far as the top guys go didn't TGO and TJ shoot sixes last year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Flex, I hear you. But..... The ONLY difference between a 5" and 6" gun that is necessary is an inch of sight radius one way or the other, otherwise they can have the EXACT same weight, balance point, cycling speed, recoil, you name it and it can be matched. I have a bad tendency to shoot with really soft hands and that can make the gun look a lot slower, but that is all me. With a proper grip my gun is extremely flat and soft yet will still cycle in the .05-.06 range.... I don't see how giving up an inch of sight radius when all else is equal makes sense, but that is just my opinion. I hear you too, and as much as it should make sense...from what I have seen, all else is NOT equal. YMMV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 Here is a video of a 20 round stage...without much room to reload...where Manny's extra rounds came in handy (2 make-up shots): [correction: after watching the video again...and not going off memory ...that looks like a 22 round stage, no make-ups...with little room to reload] Don't know if you noticed , he got a noshoot/ mike on the last array. Dance with the devil and all that. Looked like just a NS and a hit. He could have made it up if it were also a Mike, since he still had an extra round? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted July 6, 2009 Share Posted July 6, 2009 (edited) The mags are tuned so it doesn't lock back. We may be on the way to designing a whole new gun, but its starting to get interesting. On Saturday I watched three or four people run their guns dry on a high round count stage. In each case they got the "click, uh-oh" and then reload. All but one forgot to rack the slide after the reload adding even more time. Sure would have been a lot easier to feel the slide lock back, slap a reload in and go. +1! Especially if you're also shooting other divisions - There are already enough differences between my limited gun, my single stack, and my production gun. I don't need one more thing to try to remember about that particular gun, especially since running dry usually means you've already grabbed the wrong mag, just missed a bunch of shots, or miscalculated a stage. That's not the time to think "empty? bad ammo? squib? malfunction? which gun am I shooting again? etc..." At this point, with so many changes, I'd bet your close to the breakpoint where just having a gun built from scratch would be cheaper and maybe more likely to find a smith willing to do the work. R, Or at least just let one smith make his recommended changes so that the gun doesn't run like a gun built by committee! Edited July 6, 2009 by bbbean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Chuck, those 7" guns came with VERY specific load data when new too. They aren't feasible from a production standpoint and I apologize for not making that clear, use a load not suited and you will destroy the upper locking lugs in a hurry. It certainly can be done as you know, but it is an extremely sensitive proposition. AFAIK Jim Clark pioneered the 7" guns.... As far as taking more time to line up with a 6" vs a 5", hmmm...... Doesn't bother me at all, and I appreciate the added accuracy when I am actually using the bump on the front. I am not a GM though, and I tend to use the outline of the gun on close hoser targets or go to the front sight with some clarity on all other shots, if I have to aim I might as well aim. I use a .090" wide fiber with a slightly wider and lot deeper notch on the Bo-Mar that gives me a 30-40-30 light bar to front sight ratio. Could be you used a wider front sight that didn't give the light bars? IDK. I'd love to burn a couple hundred rounds with some of you guys after a match and get your input. Don't kid yourself, I know at least a few super squad guys that haven't fielded a 6" gun are/were playing with 6" guns and trying to figure out a way to switch. I think you would have seen a couple at Nats this year that hadn't run 6" guns before, but with the sponsorship things going on a lot of guys are holding back. Switching platforms in one or more divisions is hard enough without adding another gun to the mix when what you have works good. The best shooter I personally know well found a .3 hit factor improvement with my personal 6" gun over a couple thousand rounds of testing against his normal match gun, and my gun was not tailored to him. The grip is too small and the trigger too short for him on my gun. I am not going to say who it is, if he sees it and cares to comment that is up to him. Flex, I hear you, there are a ton of different 6" guns out there and some of them are just turds to me. From violent to super sluggish, light and heavy. What I like doesn't suit everyone, and what someone else likes doesn't suit me. Trust me though, anything that can be done in a 5" gun can be done in a 6" platform with the only change being another inch of sight radius. I know, I have done it, with bull barrel and bushing barrel, slides from 17 ounces to 8 ounces and all combinations including frame weight changes. It took months of work and a couple grand, but it was educational. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 I know, I have done it, with bull barrel and bushing barrel, slides from 17 ounces to 8 ounces and all combinations including frame weight changes. It took months of work and a couple grand, but it was educational. Now Howard if you would just kindly send all those extra parts to me I'll see if I can't come up with something for my Limited gun setup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-ManBart Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Ok, lets settle the score on the Ultimate mag. If you are a C class shooter with no chance to win a stage having the extra rounds won't make that much difference to you. You could beat your nemisis old Roy but not the big dawgs. Maybe that C shooter won't win the stage, but it might help them win their class (say at an Area match) and get a slot to the Nationals right? In some ways, extra rounds help the lower class shooter more than the big dogs. If it's tight the best are either going to slow down, get perfect hits and make absolutely sure they can finish without a reload or throw one in where it fits best....and the reload will hurt their time less than shooters who aren't as good. The less accomplished shooter is more likely to have a couple of misses that surprise them where an extra round or two might save their bacon on a stage. That's not saying anything new, it's just looking at it from a different perspective. R, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMITH Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 LOL, they are TOAST. Tested to the point of near failure/failure you might say.... My Limited gun has not one part from the original two top ends left on it other than the Bo-Mar. Even the firing pin was sacrificed. You never know where the wall is until you hit it. As far as I know no one else has done it, at least no one that I wanted to build a gun for me had done it well enough to answer my questions. No one would make what I wanted so I got frustrated, not one of them told me what I wanted was reasonable or agreed to build it, most even told me it could NOT be done, so I called Chuck to order the parts and the rest is history. Even Chuck tried to talk me out of it LOL. I figured if I was going to jump off and figure it all out myself I might as well have data points from here to WAY past there, so I cut up a bunch of really serviceable parts incrementally until they didn't work anymore LOL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocket35 Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 A beautifully tuned set of mags and grip from Bobby Keigans at Freedom Gunworks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gino_aki Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 (edited) Chuck, those 7" guns came with VERY specific load data when new too. They aren't feasible from a production standpoint and I apologize for not making that clear, use a load not suited and you will destroy the upper locking lugs in a hurry. It certainly can be done as you know, but it is an extremely sensitive proposition. AFAIK Jim Clark pioneered the 7" guns....As far as taking more time to line up with a 6" vs a 5", hmmm...... Doesn't bother me at all, and I appreciate the added accuracy when I am actually using the bump on the front. I am not a GM though, and I tend to use the outline of the gun on close hoser targets or go to the front sight with some clarity on all other shots, if I have to aim I might as well aim. I use a .090" wide fiber with a slightly wider and lot deeper notch on the Bo-Mar that gives me a 30-40-30 light bar to front sight ratio. Could be you used a wider front sight that didn't give the light bars? IDK. I'd love to burn a couple hundred rounds with some of you guys after a match and get your input. Don't kid yourself, I know at least a few super squad guys that haven't fielded a 6" gun are/were playing with 6" guns and trying to figure out a way to switch. I think you would have seen a couple at Nats this year that hadn't run 6" guns before, but with the sponsorship things going on a lot of guys are holding back. Switching platforms in one or more divisions is hard enough without adding another gun to the mix when what you have works good. The best shooter I personally know well found a .3 hit factor improvement with my personal 6" gun over a couple thousand rounds of testing against his normal match gun, and my gun was not tailored to him. The grip is too small and the trigger too short for him on my gun. I am not going to say who it is, if he sees it and cares to comment that is up to him. Flex, I hear you, there are a ton of different 6" guns out there and some of them are just turds to me. From violent to super sluggish, light and heavy. What I like doesn't suit everyone, and what someone else likes doesn't suit me. Trust me though, anything that can be done in a 5" gun can be done in a 6" platform with the only change being another inch of sight radius. I know, I have done it, with bull barrel and bushing barrel, slides from 17 ounces to 8 ounces and all combinations including frame weight changes. It took months of work and a couple grand, but it was educational. Well seeing as how you're not tuning mags anymore, I'm going to suppose we're not going to see any HSMITH guns to give Benny any competition...or are we? JK, I like my six inch as well, though probably not for the typical reasons...it's set up on a Para in .38SC with a slide lightened just enough to get it to work with 140 PF loads. It's really comfortable to shoot, which for me nowadays is becoming more and more important. I like the way the weight soaks up the recoil; having a gun that's so controllable lets me concentrate more on stage breakdown and smoothness and calling shots (though I'm sure that mike was a C ). So as not to drift the thread I'd (and I guess most who've opined) say a more philosophical answer to the OP would be that the Ultimate Limited Gun is a different animal for everybody, though I'm sure he meant as far as being STI/SV based. If I can ever dig myself out of this financial hellhole I put myself in, I'd like to feel how comfortable a full profile six inch STI/SV in .40 would be. Bet that sucker would be HEAVY but smooth. Hmmm, wait I already have a six inch 10mm barrel...ack, that's how it always starts doesn't it? Edited July 7, 2009 by gino_aki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgunz11 Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 HSMITH hasn't completely retired from the mag tuning business, but I'm going to let him release that news when he's ready. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XRe Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Here is a video of a 20 round stage...without much room to reload...where Manny's extra rounds came in handy (2 make-up shots): [correction: after watching the video again...and not going off memory ...that looks like a 22 round stage, no make-ups...with little room to reload] Don't know if you noticed , he got a noshoot/ mike on the last array. Dance with the devil and all that. Looked like just a NS and a hit. He could have made it up if it were also a Mike, since he still had an extra round? 22 round stage. He had 21+1 in the gun. The hit was a B/NS, cutting the non-scoring border on the no-shoot. This was before he had a 22 round mag... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted July 10, 2009 Author Share Posted July 10, 2009 Thanks everone for your input. I have decied that a 6" makes the most sense, anything that can help with accuracy will help you do better in a match. So it will either be a 6" top or a whole new gun. If you see a good deal on a 6"er pm me. Right now it looks like Bedell has the best deal on a build and it appears to be a fine looking gun. I did check with Benny, however I don't know that his gun is worth $500 more than a Bedell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1973 Posted November 21, 2009 Share Posted November 21, 2009 This is what Matt Cheely and I did to make my Edge the "ultimate Limited gun". I could not be any happier with it. 1st class! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
openmike Posted December 6, 2009 Share Posted December 6, 2009 Right On Howard. I've seen your guns. They rock... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Gaines Posted December 6, 2009 Share Posted December 6, 2009 This is what Matt Cheely and I did to make my Edge the "ultimate Limited gun". I could not be any happier with it. 1st class! Those are some pretty Freedom gunwork tuned mags, oh and the gun is nice to. lol As far as the $500 extra for the Benny gun, that sounds like a pretty good deal, Benny is one of the top gunsmiths in the Nation. He is known for his "Fat Free" 6" gun, if there are so many people talking about the fat free, there must be something there, Well I have shot them and they are smooth and track extremely well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CocoBolo Posted December 9, 2009 Author Share Posted December 9, 2009 Sean - That is one good looking machine. I sold the limited gun I was going to play with. I picked up an Infinity limited gun from GeneralChang and I'm exploring what I like about it over the edge. It is TriTopped and lighter than the Edge which is nice. It also has the AET Schueman barrel, which seems to be very accurate. +1 on custom guns tighter fit than the factory jobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodownzero Posted December 25, 2009 Share Posted December 25, 2009 Does anyone have a picture of the fat free 6"er? Can it be made as light as a 5" with the right parts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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