Jim Norman Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 I LIKE STAGE SCORE! Yes, not real fond of Palm, but StageScore ROCKS. We shot about 80 people over two days. other than one obviously wrong time we had as far as I know, no errors and Da-da-dada! The scores were done while three stages were still being torn down! If I had internet at the range, the scores would have been posted as well. As it was, As soon as I got home after dinner they scores were up. If you can score on paper, you can score on a Palm. No sloppy handwriting, no missing times or nits. Got to love it! Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt2ace Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 (edited) +1............. We (DCPA) have been using StageScore through 4 monthly matches averaging 45 shooters/match with no problems related to the software. Yea, the Palm 505s are a bit slow, but once you get used to them, it's not really any big impact to run time on stages. A basic breakdown of costs to get setup.......... StageScore program $275 5 Palm 505s $150 Cases and cables $100 4 hours savings per month (not) entering scores manually PRICELESS!!! With an internet connection at the range, I can have the scores posted on USPSA within 30 minutes of the last shot fired. Edited June 29, 2009 by matt2ace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 If you are not using it, you are stuck in the stone age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shawn Knight Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 WOOHOO!!!! PDA based scoring does rock!! We will be using it at Area 3!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 I think this is the system that was used at Area 5. ** I'd never used a Palm scoring system before, and the only time I touched the Palm at the Area 5 match was to move it out of the sun while we were between squads once. ** - As a major match CRO, there is no doubt that I can run shooters and score faster with a paper system. We were often waiting on the Palm. If I can save 15 seconds per shooter at a Major, that translates into about half-an-hour saved for the day. - As a shooter, I never really got to review my hits before signing off. I know that I could have. But, on staff day, our squads Palm guy was struggling enough as it was. We didn't need any more hassle for him (our squad was too small anyway, at 4 shooters). - I know what it cost to buy duplicate score sheets for a major. I know what hotel rooms and stats runners cost/need. I can appreciate the offset. For a major, it's a coin toss for me...right now. I think that advantage still tilts in favor of paper and a good stats crew. At a local, it would seem the Palm would kick butt. Then, as more and more locals get used to it...it will run better at majors (where most of the staff is still at the newbie level with them). I hope to see them progress. If I were making the call for a local match...I'd go with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nemo Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 For major matches using PDA scoring, is there a way of giving the shooter a printout of his/her stage score or does the effort have to be duplicated on paper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefcs5 Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 do they work on anything other than palms? I have 6 pda/cells that are windows mobile 6.1 that are no longer in use and if it would work on that then we could use them and evem upload from the range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted June 29, 2009 Author Share Posted June 29, 2009 Flex, If you are using the ASS system, you are correct, they are not as user friendly as the Stagescore system. We are able to train our users in about the time it takes to score two shooters. The biggest setback we have is getting the shooters to register in advance. We used to sign up and squad the morning of the match, then go home and enter all the data while trying to decipher the writing. Now a few clicks and the scores are done. all in all it is almost as fast pre-match and infinitely faster post match. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 I didn't use it. I am not sure what was used at Area5. I thought it was the new system and not the ASS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 For major matches using PDA scoring, is there a way of giving the shooter a printout of his/her stage score or does the effort have to be duplicated on paper? At Area 5, we had to duplicate it on paper. The shooter got a copy of all the totals, and the stage/match kept a duplicate copy. These were done of 8x11 duplicate paper, with the shooters receipt being the width of the paper and about and inch tall (perforated rip-off tabs). I don't know how you'd get a print off. You'd need a printer that would read the data, and then one printer for each stage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lneel Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 For major matches using PDA scoring, is there a way of giving the shooter a printout of his/her stage score or does the effort have to be duplicated on paper? Nemo, for Area 4 we will be using thermal printers to create 2 copies. One for the shooter and one for the scoring staff just in case. We will also have (2) Palm Tungsten T2's per stage so the "delay" while printing can be negated by picking up the second Palm. The Tungsten T2's are a bit faster than the minimum requirement M500 as well. We used this setup at the Texas Open this year and most everyone had good comments. I was Ebay savy enough to get ~30 printers and I have ~40 Palms. yes, it was a large investment but my stress level while doing the scoring drops to near zero. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lneel Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 do they work on anything other than palms? I have 6 pda/cells that are windows mobile 6.1 that are no longer in use and if it would work on that then we could use them and evem upload from the range. Nope, StageScore only works on Palms... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireant Posted June 29, 2009 Share Posted June 29, 2009 While paper may move the shooters 15 seconds faster in good weather, throw in a little bit of rain and the palms become way faster than paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 If you are thinking big picture. Palm scoring is the only way to go. 200+ shooters, no errors, no waiting HOURS after the match is over to see your finish. upload, done. Printing the results slows you down though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MI_Packer Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 StageScore is what was used at Area 5. I think the palm was a litlle slower at the stage but the net for the match was probably less. My club provided 10 of the units used there. I can tell you Rod at StageScore is a fellow shooter and he returns calls and emails very quickly to support the product. One thing you should plan for is what happens if a unit goes permanently out of service - no chance of recovering the data. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 You also have to look at all the time that is saved for the stats people... what happens on the range is only half the story... also getting the scored out quick is a real plus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 I wouldn't say 'no errors' for the Palm. The errors are different and maybe more insidious. I think several people have posted as how hits ended up by mistake in the wrong columns due to small buttons and fat fingers, and I've heard of times being entered incorrectly the same way. With paper scoresheets a fatfinger in stats can be fixed if the shooter checks their HFs. With the Palm, what's entered is it, wrong or right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shootingchef Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 as with the written score sheets, human error is unavoidable, thus the onus is on the shooter to check his score before signing or leaving that stage. For us at NTPS we have thermo printers and shooters get a copy. Errors are still far and few. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 While paper may move the shooters 15 seconds faster in good weather, throw in a little bit of rain and the palms become way faster than paper. It rained pretty good for a bit on staff day at the Area5. The palm guy was under the shelter just like the paper guys always are. That said, I can see the benefit (over paper) of having it in a bag during bad weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 The palm scoring at last year at the Nationals was cool. Score were posted in just minutes and posted on huge screens to view. No freakin wailing wall pushing and shoving to see scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt2ace Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 Flex,If you are using the ASS system, you are correct, they are not as user friendly as the Stagescore system. We are able to train our users in about the time it takes to score two shooters. The biggest setback we have is getting the shooters to register in advance. We used to sign up and squad the morning of the match, then go home and enter all the data while trying to decipher the writing. Now a few clicks and the scores are done. all in all it is almost as fast pre-match and infinitely faster post match. Jim +1 again Jim.......... Pre-registration makes all the difference on match day with Palms. At DCPA, we typically get about 75% of shooters pre-registered now. For stats, there is no comparison at all. My wife was the only stats person, plus me as the runner syncing Palms, for 2 years of A7/Aware in Vermont. She completed the stats summary within 30 minutes of the last shot fired each day of the match including finalizing results for 180+ shooters at the end of the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BritinUSA Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 If they came out with a PALM that was about 7"x5" it would be awesome ! With the bright Colorado sunshine it can be hard to see the screen, more so if you are wearing tinted sunglasses. A bigger screen would prevent errors and be easier to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoNsTeR Posted June 30, 2009 Share Posted June 30, 2009 If they came out with a PALM that was about 7"x5" it would be awesome ! With the bright Colorado sunshine it can be hard to see the screen, more so if you are wearing tinted sunglasses. A bigger screen would prevent errors and be easier to read. Amen. I thought I would love Palm scoring but I hate it. When the RO holds it out for your signature it's impossible to review your hits. If you're wearing polarized sunglasses it's impossible to use the whole thing period. The screens are too small. The battery life is too short. Small mistakes end up nuking competitors' entire match scores. Match starts get delayed while the Palms are set up. I'm sure electronic score keeping will get there eventually, and I appreciate the trailblazing efforts with imperfect systems, but for now let's just say I'm really glad my two favorite clubs have stuck with paper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted June 30, 2009 Author Share Posted June 30, 2009 If they came out with a PALM that was about 7"x5" it would be awesome ! With the bright Colorado sunshine it can be hard to see the screen, more so if you are wearing tinted sunglasses. A bigger screen would prevent errors and be easier to read. Amen. I thought I would love Palm scoring but I hate it. When the RO holds it out for your signature it's impossible to review your hits. If you're wearing polarized sunglasses it's impossible to use the whole thing period. The screens are too small. The battery life is too short. Small mistakes end up nuking competitors' entire match scores. Match starts get delayed while the Palms are set up. I'm sure electronic score keeping will get there eventually, and I appreciate the trailblazing efforts with imperfect systems, but for now let's just say I'm really glad my two favorite clubs have stuck with paper. Funny you mention battery life, I run the M105's that I got from 3Dog with the system and have had zero issues with battery life. As for the polarized glasses, can't read the timer either. Mistakes, well compared to what I was getting with pen and paper, no contest. Small errors? Compared to No Time, No hits on Steel illegible times, missing hits or extra hits on targets, Palms are far more reliable. For the record, I charge all 12 of my Palms one night before match day. I have not yet had a battery failure or lost a shooter. even when I've had a Palm freeze and had to 'reset' the data for all except the last shooter was there and the freeze (so far) has awlays occured on the summary page, so we copy the info and re-enter it. We are planning on making up a set of generic sheets for emergencies so that in the event of a melt down, we can continue the match. Our Match start is running about the same with Palms as without. That is largely due to shooters that can't get out of bed early enough to sign in on time. You squad 7 squads all nicely rounded and 5 people on each of three squads aren't there for walk-through, so you re-jigger your squading to workable sizes and lo and behold Sleepy, Drowsy, Doc, Grumpy and the rest all wander in a half an hour late. You wind up re-re-jiggering. We have decided that our pre-registration will close at midnight on Friday for a Sunday match. after which you are a Walk-on. If you show up late, you will simply get placed where ever we can fit you. Our set-up crew, probably just like yours gets to the range 3 hours before the first shot and works tho build the match, then stays late to tear it all down. The very least we can ask of our shooters is that they get to work on time. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Norman Posted July 6, 2009 Author Share Posted July 6, 2009 Just to add a bit here and perhaps this entire thread should really be in Pre-Match or Match Management, but... We just added online registration. Great system, click a link on our website, it opens a form, fill in all the required info, room for some non-required info and send. Registrant gets an email and all I have to do is download the info in csv, excell or word. We are working on being able to directly load this into EzWinScore. Feel free to take a look at our site, but unless you are planning on shooting, PLEASE don't register. Thank you Presently we will allow walk-on shooters as we don't cap our match. we have run over 90, it just takes some co-operation. The caveat being that if you don't register by Midnight Friday, you don't get squadding preference. So if you want to shoot with your buddies, you need to be proactive. You can't register at 2 in the morning on Sunday and expect us to even know about it let alone honor it. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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