Muzzle Warning? 180 DQ?

[JThompson]

I have, on occasion, issued a "muzzle" to a shooter. I also have DQed someone for breaking it. Here are the questions to you ROs with more time running shooters. When, if at all, do you issue the a "muzzle" to the shooter? I tend to think around 175 is where my sphincter tells me to say something. And second, where do you issue the DQ for a 180? I've been on a lot of COFs where it was a tuff call in one part of the stage or another, so I've come to think that unless it's very clear, say indoors with clearly defined 180, I issue the "Stop" and DQ around 185. This way there is no doubt in my mind it was broke and also that a trick of position relative to the 180 didn't cause me to misjudge and therefore DQ someone for a non 180.

No offense, but if you don't have a minimum of two years and several majors, I would ask you remain on the sides here.

Thanks,

JT

Edited June 18, 2009 by JThompson

[steel1212]

I have, on occasion, issued a "muzzle" to a shooter. I also have DQed someone for breaking it. Here is the questions to you RO with more time running shooters. When, if at all, do you issue the a "muzzle" to the shooter? I tend to think around 175 is where my sphincter tell me to say something. And second, where do you issue the DQ for a 180? I've been on a lot of COFs where it was a tuff call in one part of the stage or another, so I've come to think that unless it's very clear, say indoors with clearly defined 180, I issue the "Stop" and DQ around 185. This way there is no doubt in my mind it was broke and also that a trick of position relative to the 180 didn't cause me to misjudge and therefore DQ someone for a non 180.

No offense, but if you don't have a minimum of two years and several majors, I would ask you remain on the sides here.

Thanks,

JT

In my opinion you can't DQ somebody because it looked like a 180. If your not 100% sure DON'T make the call. As for the muzzle warning, I tend to not issue that at all. There are a lot of stages that have the targets set pretty close to the 180 to reach. If your going to call muzzle you would be doing so for every shooter that shot that stage. If the shooter commits a DQable offense then they get what they earned. Not trying to be a tough nutt but those are the rules and they are there for safety. ON the other hand, if I have a newer shooter that I'm trying to coach through his first few matches I'll probably issue a finger warning to have him keep his finger out of the trigger guard but I'll only go so far with that until I'll DQ them. If they don't listen then they aren't paying attention to safety anyway.

[Lee King]

Some of it depends on the stage. If there are targets where you know the muzzle will be close you obviously have to watch closely. But as steel said you would end up calling muzzle to every shooter in that instance. More important than targets on 180 is to know of transition areas that will put the muzzle close. You know where to watch for it. For example, I worked a sectional championship where the shooters had to make a run either R-L or L-R. It only took a couple of shooters running to the L to realize the potential for the 180... especially for production, L10, revo because the arrays forced them to do a reload "the wrong way" no matter which way you chose to run. But again, you would end up calling "muzzle" to every shooter. The one guy I had to DQ on that stage broke the 180 so fast and in such an unusual way I really never had a chance to warn him. He ran pumping his arms so the muzzle flirted with the 180. He was about the... 50th shooter to do so. Again you end up calling "muzzle" to all of them. He ended up pumping his arm across his chest with the muzzle at about 195ish. Should I have been warning him before? I dunno.. Calling safety warnings is not required.

What happens typically is shooters look for the trouble spots and plan their stage accordingly or watch themselves closely. It's when they do something like.. blow past a target or screw up a reload and end up in a different spot than they planned. This is out of their "programming" so to speak and they often don't think about the 180 at that point. If I see a shooter do something where I think they will subsequently have a problem, then I am ready to call "muzzle".

At a local level you also learn the shooters who consistently have a problem with their muzzle. I have a good friend who has been DQ'd at least once for doing a reload and flipping the muzzle past 180. When I'm running him I know to give him a warning. Now is that fair because I know he's going to do it? (because I'm not warning everyone else) Should other measures be taken to get him to stop? Possibly. But during the COF I can only deal with the situation as it is presented. He's running it. I know he could have a problem. I deal with it. Safety is number one and at that moment warning him to head off a mistake keeps people safe.

[JThompson]

Good info and insight from both of you guys... I prob should have qualified the warning better. There are a lot of times, most really, that I say nothing when the course design dictates that a shooter comes very close or at the 180. The "muzzle" warnings I speak of are more along the lines of what Lee said, where a plan is blown or during lateral movement. The lateral movement is the time I have issued the most, or backing out out of a doorway to go lateral.

There was a stage at FL-Open that was bad where you had to go both direction on the 180 and reload... it got a more than one shooter DQed.

Keep the ideas/senarios coming and thanks...

JT

Edited June 18, 2009 by JThompson

[mactiger]

About the only time I warn for muzzle is if the competitor is acting sloppy with it, i.e., more than one pass really close to the 180. As the others said, the course design has some influence on that.

185 is about my absolute max before I call Stop and DQ for a 180 violation. I want to be very sure. As an aside, you MUST know where the 180 is relative to the course layout in order to be accurate in your calls.

Troy

[JThompson]

About the only time I warn for muzzle is if the competitor is acting sloppy with it, i.e., more than one pass really close to the 180. As the others said, the course design has some influence on that.

185 is about my absolute max before I call Stop and DQ for a 180 violation. I want to be very sure. As an aside, you MUST know where the 180 is relative to the course layout in order to be accurate in your calls.

Troy

So you walk a COF with many walls and corridors at different angles and figure out where all the likely 180s and decide ahead of time where the muzzle will be pointed before you make that call? Or is it more fluid than that and you take each case different, not in regard to the actual 180, but in what you see that set off that "stop!" reflex in you?

Edited June 18, 2009 by JThompson

[Lee King]

There was a stage at FL-Open that was bad where you had to go both direction on the 180 and reload... it got a more than one shooter DQed.

That one is a classic example. I almost DQ'd on that one. I forgot to do my reload moving back to the R. Got in that port that was on a 45 and "click". Did my reload without even thinking I was facing 45. Flirted with 180 on that one. The RO talked to me about it after. "Muzzle" would've been really helpfull there. But again, not required and things can happen pretty fast for an RO (I'd like to think my reload was just that fast too ) But I screwed up and that was what got me in trouble. Not the other spots.

But the gun is always the shooter's responsibility. IF I can warn I will. But things do happen fast and warnings aren't required. Of course, sometimes "Oh SH@$!! Wait.. uh.. watch.. uh.. STOP!!!" is all you can manage to get out. Doesn't mean it's your fault if they do break it.

[Nik Habicht]

I tend to only call muzzle during reloads or if there's really sloppy gunhandling going on, i.e. the shooter's approaching the 180 and there's not a target anywhere in the vicinity.

If there's a target on/close to the 180, I'm totally focused on the shooters position and the appearance of the gun -- is it at or withing the 180? I say nothing. Is it past the 180? Time to issue "Stop!" That sounds like I'm trying to catch the shooter, but it's actually the opposite --- the shooter needs to engage a target near the 180 to finish the stage, I'm trying to provide that opportunity without interference as long as the shooter stays on the proper side of the line....

[Lee King]

As an aside, you MUST know where the 180 is relative to the course layout in order to be accurate in your calls.

+1

I witnessed what I consider a bad call a couple of years ago because of this. The COF had a shooting lane running about 170ish. There was a RO sitting in a chair near the corner of the shooting lane. I assume his sole job was watching for 180. A shooter on our squad was moving to the next shooting position. His gun crossed the fault line of the rear of the shooting box/lane. The RO called 180 and DQ'd him. Sure his gun crossed the fault line by a couple of degrees. But the fault line was not parallel to the berm at all.

I didn't work this match. But just got my card. It was a good lesson.

[larry cazes]

Sounds like I am unlike most of you. I do not call warnings at all. It is either a DQ or I keep my mouth shut. The shooter has a right to not be distracted during a COF unless there is good reason for it. There is an argument to be made under the rule book that warnings can be considered interference by the RO and could be cause for a reshoot.

[VegasOPM]

We rarely give warnings to anyone but very new shooters at our club. The experienced guys know the drill. Some will also use it to claim interference if they think that a reshoot would help.

[mactiger]

Sounds like I am unlike most of you. I do not call warnings at all. It is either a DQ or I keep my mouth shut. The shooter has a right to not be distracted during a COF unless there is good reason for it. There is an argument to be made under the rule book that warnings can be considered interference by the RO and could be cause for a reshoot.

Actually, there isn't. See 8.6.1.

RO warnings are exempt from the "interference" rule.

Troy

[mactiger]

About the only time I warn for muzzle is if the competitor is acting sloppy with it, i.e., more than one pass really close to the 180. As the others said, the course design has some influence on that.

185 is about my absolute max before I call Stop and DQ for a 180 violation. I want to be very sure. As an aside, you MUST know where the 180 is relative to the course layout in order to be accurate in your calls.

Troy

So you walk a COF with many walls and corridors at different angles and figure out where all the likely 180s and decide ahead of time where the muzzle will be pointed before you make that call? Or is it more fluid than that and you take each case different, not in regard to the actual 180, but in what you see that set off that "stop!" reflex in you?

I guess with an "open" style of course it's just getting an idea of where the 180 is. Inside some structure, you have to know and have some specific points in mind. It doesn't take long to do, just make a general walkthrough, just like you were shooting it, and think about possible 180 problems. I generally will try to fix anything that forces the competitor to get close before we start, but that's not always possible.

Troy

[Shootingirons45]

At our club we rarely give warnings. In fact, I think that at times giving a warning can be dangerous. Let me explain. Several months ago we had a brand new shooter on our squad. Now, this shooters what we call a "squirrel" He's all over the place and you never really knew which way he's headed. A fellow squad member was running this shooter on our field course. The shooter was moving fromright to left and all but stuck the muzzle into the RO's gut. The RO wisely, in my opinion allowed the shooter to get to where he was going and then safely stopped him and applied the match DQ. Now, had the RO went to yelling at this novice it could have went bad..fast. The shooter understood what he'd done after he was taken aside and counseled. Just a thought on warnings.

[larry cazes]

Sounds like I am unlike most of you. I do not call warnings at all. It is either a DQ or I keep my mouth shut. The shooter has a right to not be distracted during a COF unless there is good reason for it. There is an argument to be made under the rule book that warnings can be considered interference by the RO and could be cause for a reshoot.

Actually, there isn't. See 8.6.1.

RO warnings are exempt from the "interference" rule.

Troy

Thanks, Troy. Wasnt aware of that one Still does not seem to be a point, though. An action is either a DQ or it isn't and if it isn't I keep my mouth shut during the COF.

[Nik Habicht]

An action is either a DQ or it isn't and if it isn't I keep my mouth shut during the COF.

You're right --- which is why I don't warn who have a reason to approach the 180, e.g. a target that's close to it. If there's no reason to be near the 180 --- and usually this comes up when a right-handed shooter is reloading while moving right to left, then a muzzle warning might prevent a bad situation, e.g. a considerable chunk of the spectators/squad members looking at the muzzle....

[colt]

I warned a new shooter this weekend about his muzzle while he was moving and he stop and pulled his ear plug out and said " what " . I was rethinking about warning shooters .

Brent

[Singlestack]

The last time I yelled muzzle it was at a new shooter. Went something like this:

muzzel Muzzle! MUZZEL!! STOP!!!!

Right handed, moving R to L shooting SS. I knew it was coming. Just couldn't stop it.

[vluc]

The last time I yelled muzzle it was at a new shooter. Went something like this:

muzzel Muzzle! MUZZEL!! STOP!!!!

Right handed, moving R to L shooting SS. I knew it was coming. Just couldn't stop it.

Mirrors the last time I called muzzle, though we did not have to add stop.. Also with a new shooter. I really don't warn an established shooter. It is or it isn't, nor do I tell them " you almost...." Save that for the new ones so they know.

Telling an established shooter he "almost broke the 180 " never made any sense to me. Like saying you "almost had your finger in the trigger guard on that reload". You either did or you didn't, RO called it or they did not.

I'm sure that all of us who have been shooting for a bit know just how close we come on certain stages or COF's to that 180 and plan for it when we shoot.

[boz1911]

With an experienced shooter I will virtually never give a warning, he'll know he's close at the same time I do and correct it. With new shooters, mainly indoors, I'll know the traps prior to the COF. I have even announced the traps during the walkthrough. If even after that, I get a new shooter that's getting loose, I'll give a "muzzle" alert when he gets close, say 160-170 degrees. I'll usually be very calm with the alert as to not rattle him/her too much, unless they are doing it continously, which will garner much more force in my voice.

[mactiger]

The last time I yelled muzzle it was at a new shooter. Went something like this:

muzzel Muzzle! MUZZEL!! STOP!!!!

Right handed, moving R to L shooting SS. I knew it was coming. Just couldn't stop it.

The best I ever heard went like this: "Muzzle, MUZZLE, BROKE IT, STOP!!" Everything going through that RO's mind came out his mouth.

Troy

[Paul B]

Actually, there isn't. See 8.6.1.

RO warnings are exempt from the "interference" rule.

Troy

This is actually one of the most potentially dangerous rules in the rulebook. We fight battles about whether the RO should ever use anything but the officially approved range commands, but this allows an RO to actually yell something else (undefined) at a competitor during a course of fire not knowing how they will react. I suspect it will take an incident to change it.

I've always come from the school that if they did it, they get it (DQ) if they didn't, they don't.

That said, I have to confess that I actually had a few sphincter tightening episodes where I involuntarily yelled "muzzle" at a new shooter. I wasn't exercising the rule just self preservation. Apologized after the stage though and used the apology for some instruction. I would fully expect an experienced shooter to really be pissed at me for the distraction as I would be also.

I have also had to physically correct a shooter with a rifle from bringing the muzzle around too far, but this was after the stage was done and the shooter just relaxed a little too much (just held out my hand and stopped the rifle from breaking the 180).

[Franklin D Wolverton]

I have never given a muzzle warning. I use the assumption that the shooter is responsible to know where the 180 is. I do kinda the same thing as Troy... I use about a 185, just to be absolutely sure that it's broken. If it gets to the point where I'm going to say something, it's gonna be STOP... not muzzle.

To be honest... I think the only time I've DQ'd anyone on a 180 was during reloads on the move. I don't remember ever DQ'ing someone engaging a target... but I'm sure that'll happen at some point as well.

Now, having said that... I'm anal about safety... While in the Marines I had one of those "Hey Corporal, my weapons jammed" moments (for those who remember Heartbreak Ridge.) Taking one less than a foot from my foot makes you think... after I "gently" disarmed him...

Something else I'll never yell is "FINGER". If they're moving, reloading, ect and I gotta yell that, they've already broken the rule...

Frank

[mactiger]

I think the occasional warning has it's place, but they should not be overused. Even experienced shooters get a little off sometimes, like when the stage is going down the tubes, etc. I always caution against using them too much when I teach a seminar, but the question always comes up, and more than once. What especially bothers me is that some people think seeing the finger in the trigger guard is cause for a "finger" warning. It's not--that's cause for a "stop".

My .02

Troy

[JThompson]

I think the occasional warning has it's place, but they should not be overused. Even experienced shooters get a little off sometimes, like when the stage is going down the tubes, etc. I always caution against using them too much when I teach a seminar, but the question always comes up, and more than once. What especially bothers me is that some people think seeing the finger in the trigger guard is cause for a "finger" warning. It's not--that's cause for a "stop".

My .02

Troy

I should have DQed a guy for the finger thing recently... I was remiss in my duties. What's worse, I knew the guy and I can't help but think it might have been a factor in warning instead of the DQ. So I failed in two areas on this one. I've done a lot of soul searching since and am resolute... it won't happen again.

Edited June 19, 2009 by JThompson