Semi new shooter(less then 5 matches)

[Jack Suber]

We run a new shooters briefing before any of our club matches here in South Carolina. Our briefings are usually about 10 minutes long and cover the basics. An engaged safety on a course of fire like described in the original post tends to get over looked for the more obvious safety rules, which is the problem with short safety briefings. But we generally cover everything and during the walk throughs, try to cover specific issues/situations that may pertain to specific courses of fire. with new shooters, we try to point out hazards/rules/ safety issues that might not have been covered in the briefing during the walk-throughs. As I am running new shooters, I tend to be very close to try to prevent them from making safety related mistakes. During the course of fire, I will coach new shooters if I am the RO - i.e. "Watch your finger; finger off the trigger when you go to reload; watch your muzzle when you turn for this target," blah blah. Of course, after they seem to have a grasp on things, then the coaching stops (I really don't consider this coaching as much as I considering it instruction).

Eric Lund was kind enough to share his new shooter course with me and I have started offering it here in S.C. I tweaked it a bit to include Steel Challenge. My first class had 25 shooters (too many) and we had a waiting list. About half of those who attended are shooting with us. I plan to start ofgfering the course about once a quarter. I REALLY think this is the way to go.

As for "range going hot." I use that command not for the shooter, but for anyone who could be down range. At the Area 6 in jax a few years ago, I was given the LAMR; Standbye; "Buzz". As I am drawing, an RO walks around a wall down range. Now, I am not sure if that has happened to anyone else but it had a rather significant impact on me and both ROs involved . So, not only do I check the range but I announce (loudly) that the range is "going hot". There is nothing wrong with this command and it ensures that everyone gets home OK.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Jack Suber

[kgunz11]

Is there really anything wrong with asking a new shooter if they "understand the CoF"? Especially on standards style drills. I usually ask as a courtesy to the shooter when multiple strings are involved with different positions, mandatory reloads, or strong hand/support hand shooting is involved. I understand it is not a range command and is not required, but I give it as a courtesy.

[Jack Suber]

Is there really anything wrong with asking a new shooter if they "understand the CoF"? Especially on standards style drills. I usually ask as a courtesy to the shooter when multiple strings are involved with different positions, mandatory reloads, or strong hand/support hand shooting is involved. I understand it is not a range command and is not required, but I give it as a courtesy.

No there is not anything wrong with it.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Jack Suber

[Alan Meek]

While it is not common here, this could happen. English if the official language of IPSC. A foreign competitor may or may not react to the first English words spoken to him by the RO.

As far as asking if the competitor understands the course of fire, do you ask each and every competitor and if they are the shooter do you really think they should be shooting the course of fire if they do not understand it. That is the purpose of the WSB and the 5min walk through.

Declaring the range is going hot. I know of an incident where a competitor actually fired rounds down range with others still down range taping. That is not good.

If I am the RO on timer duty I will make a quick perusal around the stage to make sure it is clear before I approach the competitor to give them the Make Ready command. At a larger match with more dedicated ROs they can also assist to make sure the range is clear to begin shooting.

Alan

[Spray_N_Prey]

yeah sometimes I wonder about the pre-command "banter". I guess if I was Ro'ing at nationals I would not do this. But he have lots of new shooters and I will usually state "range is going hot" after I feel that range is clear and maybe so some of the guys that are talking loud might give the shooter some respect. Asking do you understand the COF i will usually ask newer shooters if it's a standards / weird scenerio. I know this will probably get some negative responses and can cause more problems than it helps.

I guess I feel the shooter out, maybe I should cut it out completely. If I don't say it to every shooter, i'm sure somebody someday is going to think i'm favoring certain shooters ???

[Alan Meek]

yeah sometimes I wonder about the pre-command "banter". I guess if I was Ro'ing at nationals I would not do this. But he have lots of new shooters and I will usually state "range is going hot" after I feel that range is clear and maybe so some of the guys that are talking loud might give the shooter some respect. Asking do you understand the COF i will usually ask newer shooters if it's a standards / weird scenerio. I know this will probably get some negative responses and can cause more problems than it helps.

I guess I feel the shooter out, maybe I should cut it out completely. If I don't say it to every shooter, i'm sure somebody someday is going to think i'm favoring certain shooters ???

Have you ever had a shooter reply they did not understand the course of fire when you ask? Other than one being a smart a$$

[Jack Suber]

yeah sometimes I wonder about the pre-command "banter". I guess if I was Ro'ing at nationals I would not do this. But he have lots of new shooters and I will usually state "range is going hot" after I feel that range is clear and maybe so some of the guys that are talking loud might give the shooter some respect. Asking do you understand the COF i will usually ask newer shooters if it's a standards / weird scenerio. I know this will probably get some negative responses and can cause more problems than it helps.

I guess I feel the shooter out, maybe I should cut it out completely. If I don't say it to every shooter, i'm sure somebody someday is going to think i'm favoring certain shooters ???

Have you ever had a shooter reply they did not understand the course of fire when you ask? Other than one being a smart a$$

Alan,

I have. Usually, its confirmation of a start position. That sort of thing.

[Micah]

One thing that I was taught by Gary Stevens among other more seasoned CRO's is the importance of a post-DQ follow up with the shooter. Issuing a DQ without a followup...especially with a new shooter, is almost like saying "Go home cuz I said so".

Take a few minutes after the incident, rulebook in hand, and take the dq'd shooter away from the rest of the competitors and explain exactly what they did and why it earned them a ticket to the rafters. Cite the rule and show the shooter. Give advice as to how such an infraction can be avoided in the future. Finally, take away the singularity of the dq by sharing a few anecdotes that include other shooters there and how they have dq'd in the past.

A rational person may still be a little upset after you take these steps, but will feel less embarrassed and less singled out. Furthermore they will have the knowledge to avoid the problem in the future. An irrational person will remained super pissed and never come back...we don't really need that type in our company anyway.

[Micah]

...Also wanted to add...there is no such thing as a Level I rulebook and a Level II & III rulebook. The rules are the same for every venue. We are doing the competitors, as well as the sport a disservice by not remaining consistent with upholding the rules. Not that the op is guilty of this, but I have seen the "It's only a club match" mentality used before, and it is wrong, wrong, wrong.

[Alan Meek]

yeah sometimes I wonder about the pre-command "banter". I guess if I was Ro'ing at nationals I would not do this. But he have lots of new shooters and I will usually state "range is going hot" after I feel that range is clear and maybe so some of the guys that are talking loud might give the shooter some respect. Asking do you understand the COF i will usually ask newer shooters if it's a standards / weird scenerio. I know this will probably get some negative responses and can cause more problems than it helps.

I guess I feel the shooter out, maybe I should cut it out completely. If I don't say it to every shooter, i'm sure somebody someday is going to think i'm favoring certain shooters ???

Have you ever had a shooter reply they did not understand the course of fire when you ask? Other than one being a smart a$$

Alan,

I have. Usually, its confirmation of a start position. That sort of thing.

Jack, Thanks

I have had shooters confirm the start position without me asking if they understand the course of fire.

Alan

[Jack Suber]

.

Declaring the range is going hot. I know of an incident where a competitor actually fired rounds down range with others still down range taping. That is not good.

I did not get my safety off by the time I saw the guy. But I cleary remember his "Oh F**k!" comment and everyone and their mother yelling "STOP!!!" I unloaded and showed clear. I thought the RO with the timer was going to pass out. At that point, they asked if I was ready to shoot. I said, "yeah." I think it was Todd Jarret walked up to me and said, "You need to go sit down." I said, "Nah, I am fine." I should have gone and sat down. Because at the second LAMR, it hit me and I started shaking like Wylie Coyote after he swallowed the "earthquake pills".

For the most part, we use walls that do not go to the ground or we use mesh, so that type of event is more than likely not going to occur again. However, its just a habit I have from teaching, etc.

[Spray_N_Prey]

yeah sometimes I wonder about the pre-command "banter". I guess if I was Ro'ing at nationals I would not do this. But he have lots of new shooters and I will usually state "range is going hot" after I feel that range is clear and maybe so some of the guys that are talking loud might give the shooter some respect. Asking do you understand the COF i will usually ask newer shooters if it's a standards / weird scenerio. I know this will probably get some negative responses and can cause more problems than it helps.

I guess I feel the shooter out, maybe I should cut it out completely. If I don't say it to every shooter, i'm sure somebody someday is going to think i'm favoring certain shooters ???

Have you ever had a shooter reply they did not understand the course of fire when you ask? Other than one being a smart a$$

Actually more often then you think. Alot of hand confirmation - Some will repeat what they think they should do, some will ask 6 reload 6, right? I have NEVER had a smartass remark after asking. sometimes it's a kidding around remark, I wouldn't call it a smartass remark though. Many times they DON'T understand and will have something backwards that would have costed them many procedurals.

but most of the time they'll confirm it more so they are confirming to themselves than to me and sometimes they will still screw up.

[Alan Meek]

yeah sometimes I wonder about the pre-command "banter". I guess if I was Ro'ing at nationals I would not do this. But he have lots of new shooters and I will usually state "range is going hot" after I feel that range is clear and maybe so some of the guys that are talking loud might give the shooter some respect. Asking do you understand the COF i will usually ask newer shooters if it's a standards / weird scenerio. I know this will probably get some negative responses and can cause more problems than it helps.

I guess I feel the shooter out, maybe I should cut it out completely. If I don't say it to every shooter, i'm sure somebody someday is going to think i'm favoring certain shooters ???

Have you ever had a shooter reply they did not understand the course of fire when you ask? Other than one being a smart a$$

Actually more often then you think. Alot of hand confirmation - Some will repeat what they think they should do, some will ask 6 reload 6, right? I have NEVER had a smartass remark after asking. sometimes it's a kidding around remark, I wouldn't call it a smartass remark though. Many times they DON'T understand and will have something backwards that would have costed them many procedurals.

but most of the time they'll confirm it more so they are confirming to themselves than to me and sometimes they will still screw up.

Smart A$$ was probably to harsh, kidding around should have been more to what I was referring to, cause if I am asked I will generally give the smart a$$ reply

[kgunz11]

Alan, they will often verbally repeat the required duties for that string of fire, more of asking confirmation. I ask everyone, even the guys that have been shooting for 18+ years, and to this date no one seems to mind.

[ima45dv8]

Whenever someone asks me if I understand the CoF, I answer, "We'll know in a minute!" I smile while I do so.

I get the point about foreign shooters and at Level II's and above I generally start competitor communications with, "Make Ready" for that and similar reasons. I will ask new-ish shooters if they have any questions at local Level I's just to make sure they're not holding their breath from nervousness ( ), but anyone who's been around for a while just gets MR.

Back to the original question....everything's a situation with it's own unique circumstances. Not having been there and not knowing the shooter's experience level, I can't honestly say what I'd have done.

[Singlestack]

Alan, they will often verbally repeat the required duties for that string of fire, more of asking confirmation. I ask everyone, even the guys that have been shooting for 18+ years, and to this date no one seems to mind.

I mind. It is not a range command. Unless I ask a question all I want to hear when I am on the line is range commands.

If the shooter can't pay attention to the walk through it's not my fault. I will answer any questions but I never ask if they understand the COF. I give them the courtesy of not assuming they can't read or listen.

[Shootingirons45]

.

Declaring the range is going hot. I know of an incident where a competitor actually fired rounds down range with others still down range taping. That is not good.

I did not get my safety off by the time I saw the guy. But I cleary remember his "Oh F**k!" comment and everyone and their mother yelling "STOP!!!" I unloaded and showed clear. I thought the RO with the timer was going to pass out. At that point, they asked if I was ready to shoot. I said, "yeah." I think it was Todd Jarret walked up to me and said, "You need to go sit down." I said, "Nah, I am fine." I should have gone and sat down. Because at the second LAMR, it hit me and I started shaking like Wylie Coyote after he swallowed the "earthquake pills".

For the most part, we use walls that do not go to the ground or we use mesh, so that type of event is more than likely not going to occur again. However, its just a habit I have from teaching, etc.

I've seen a few times when this has occured and it's unerving to say the least. what I started doing at our local matches is to designate one person to be the last person out. What this does is to give us a visual confirmation that the range is indeed clear of anybody. This is especially important since we use walls that can't be seen thru.

[BayouSlide]

I had to DQ a first time shooter recently at the last stage of a match. When I asked him if he understood the COF, he drew his pistol before the Make Ready command. ...<snip>....

Recently I read something like "They are called rules, not suggestions" in the signature line of one of the area directors. Good advice, especially for anything safety related.

Curtis

This is why as an RO you should only issue the proper range commands

Alan...since I was paraphrasing your sig line, I'm kinda glad you were the one that called me on this

A question pre-start to a new shooter isn't a range command, granted, but intended to be more a very short, conversation to make sure they don't have any questions. But you have made an excellent point and I completely agree with you in this case. We were standing there, he's in the box and I spoke to him...and he drew to make ready. He was probably a little keyed up and wasn't paying complete attention to my words, but he's a newbie and hasn't been through the drill a thousand times yet. He was wrong, sure, but in trying to help I probably just made it easier for him to end his match.

If my only words to him were "Make Ready" I probably wouldn't have had anything to add to this discussion.

Another lesson learned.

That's why I consider this Rules forum "Dry Fire Exercises for R.O.s".

[Joe4d]

Alan, they will often verbally repeat the required duties for that string of fire, more of asking confirmation. I ask everyone, even the guys that have been shooting for 18+ years, and to this date no one seems to mind.

I mind. It is not a range command. Unless I ask a question all I want to hear when I am on the line is range commands.

If the shooter can't pay attention to the walk through it's not my fault. I will answer any questions but I never ask if they understand the COF. I give them the courtesy of not assuming they can't read or listen.

So riddle me this, If I am on the line and you turn and say "range is hot" or do you understand, What do you do if I draw my gun and start loading up ? There really isnt anything you can say or do because the error is actually yours. Thanks to an Iraqi mortar my right ear is almost worthless I hear sounds fine I just have problems m aking out words. So generally what I hear from the ro is WA WAA WAA WA, (insert Charlie Brown teacher talk here).

[Singlestack]

Alan, they will often verbally repeat the required duties for that string of fire, more of asking confirmation. I ask everyone, even the guys that have been shooting for 18+ years, and to this date no one seems to mind.

I mind. It is not a range command. Unless I ask a question all I want to hear when I am on the line is range commands.

If the shooter can't pay attention to the walk through it's not my fault. I will answer any questions but I never ask if they understand the COF. I give them the courtesy of not assuming they can't read or listen.

So riddle me this, If I am on the line and you turn and say "range is hot" or do you understand, What do you do if I draw my gun and start loading up ? There really isnt anything you can say or do because the error is actually yours. Thanks to an Iraqi mortar my right ear is almost worthless I hear sounds fine I just have problems m aking out words. So generally what I hear from the ro is WA WAA WAA WA, (insert Charlie Brown teacher talk here).

I'm going to assume that your riddle is for kgunz11 since it seems you and I agree.

[Alan Meek]

Alan, they will often verbally repeat the required duties for that string of fire, more of asking confirmation. I ask everyone, even the guys that have been shooting for 18+ years, and to this date no one seems to mind.

I mind. It is not a range command. Unless I ask a question all I want to hear when I am on the line is range commands.

If the shooter can't pay attention to the walk through it's not my fault. I will answer any questions but I never ask if they understand the COF. I give them the courtesy of not assuming they can't read or listen.

So riddle me this, If I am on the line and you turn and say "range is hot" or do you understand, What do you do if I draw my gun and start loading up ? There really isnt anything you can say or do because the error is actually yours. Thanks to an Iraqi mortar my right ear is almost worthless I hear sounds fine I just have problems m aking out words. So generally what I hear from the ro is WA WAA WAA WA, (insert Charlie Brown teacher talk here).

Are you sure that WA WAA WAA WA is not you hearing me while my targets are being scored

[Jack Suber]

Alan, they will often verbally repeat the required duties for that string of fire, more of asking confirmation. I ask everyone, even the guys that have been shooting for 18+ years, and to this date no one seems to mind.

I mind. It is not a range command. Unless I ask a question all I want to hear when I am on the line is range commands.

If the shooter can't pay attention to the walk through it's not my fault. I will answer any questions but I never ask if they understand the COF. I give them the courtesy of not assuming they can't read or listen.

So riddle me this, If I am on the line and you turn and say "range is hot" or do you understand, What do you do if I draw my gun and start loading up ? There really isnt anything you can say or do because the error is actually yours. Thanks to an Iraqi mortar my right ear is almost worthless I hear sounds fine I just have problems m aking out words. So generally what I hear from the ro is WA WAA WAA WA, (insert Charlie Brown teacher talk here).

I would DQ you at that point because you did not follow the specific range commands that we covered during the new shooter briefing prior to the start of the match. "Going Hot" and "any Questions" has nothing to do with LAMR. If you interpret "going hot" or "any questions" with LAMR, then perhaps we have an English comprehension issue.

Now at level 2 and above matches, the commands should be followed and are at our club (though we still use "going hot").

[kgunz11]

Alan, they will often verbally repeat the required duties for that string of fire, more of asking confirmation. I ask everyone, even the guys that have been shooting for 18+ years, and to this date no one seems to mind.

I mind. It is not a range command. Unless I ask a question all I want to hear when I am on the line is range commands.

If the shooter can't pay attention to the walk through it's not my fault. I will answer any questions but I never ask if they understand the COF. I give them the courtesy of not assuming they can't read or listen.

So riddle me this, If I am on the line and you turn and say "range is hot" or do you understand, What do you do if I draw my gun and start loading up ? There really isnt anything you can say or do because the error is actually yours. Thanks to an Iraqi mortar my right ear is almost worthless I hear sounds fine I just have problems m aking out words. So generally what I hear from the ro is WA WAA WAA WA, (insert Charlie Brown teacher talk here).

I expect you to be able to clearly hear ALL commands, relevant or not. How do you know if I said "hang on, we need to reset a piece of steel", you're not going to snatch the gun out of the holster? If I know in advance you have a hearing issue, I am quite capable of speaking loud enough for you to hear me clearly. Saying you have a hearing problem and you cannot make out what I am saying to you does not make me feel any better, especially since all you admittedly hear from the ro "is WA WAA WAA WA, (insert Charlie Brown teacher talk here)".

[kgunz11]

And to add, "Make Ready" is the beginning of the CoF, until the CoF has begun, can I not ask someone if they understand what is to be done? After "Make Ready", it's all business. I know I've been able to say to friends many times "I asked if you understood" while laughing with them about their recent brain fart.

And BTW, "Load and" is no longer part of the range commands, neither is "slide down", but how often do you still hear it? I don't hear anyone complaining about that either.

[ima45dv8]

I have to side with Bobby on this. Just because I said something to you, doesn't mean it was a command allowing you to remove your gun from the holster. Yeah, foreign competitors might get a pass based on English Comprehension tests, but even that rubs me wrong.

For example, I ask the other RO if the range is clear. I do so in English. Is that phrase spoken in English enough to allow a non-English speaking competitor to draw his gun? I don't think so. If they are traveling to a location that speaks primarily the English language, and English is considered to be the standard language for IPSC/USPSA, hearing just any old English word escape my lips is not the same as "Make Ready".

Likewise, if you are hard of hearing, as so many competitors are, let the RO know. Otherwise we'll probably have a disapproving attitude when you yank your gun in response to, "Is that target taped?"