Firearm Manufacturing

[SkyScrapin]

Starting about 2 weeks ago I had this great idea of building a company. Of course, there are butt loads of permits and licenses you have to acquire before being able to do so.

I guess my question is, what do you fellows think about starting a Manufacturing company? I am trying to look at this from every aspect, especially from the eyes of the shooting community here at Brian's forums.

Estimated start up costs...

whether to import internals and stick to components such as the slide, lower, barrel and magazine...

I want to start something more visually appealing such as a new finish that not many have used for mass production. Good/bad?...

What machines would be a must?...

........anything else that might be important to talk about...........

Please keep responses reasonable. It is important that money is not an object within reason (couple hundred k).

Thanks,

Preston

[LadyinBlue]

Reasonable response #1:

The evolution of firearms from the muzzle loader to the modern semi-automatic rifle spans over 700 years.

Countless designers, engineers, inventors, shooters, hunters and dreamers have worked tirelessly to create and perfect the awesome mechanical device we have available to us today. Most of us just love to shoot and are intrigued by firearms. We read books, magazine articles, surf the Internet, and watch shows on the Outdoor channel to absorb as much info as we can about this sport we love. A lifetime of interest based on an initial spark of desire to know more. The manufacturer starts here.

[SkyScrapin]

Reasonable response #1:

The evolution of firearms from the muzzle loader to the modern semi-automatic rifle spans over 700 years.

Countless designers, engineers, inventors, shooters, hunters and dreamers have worked tirelessly to create and perfect the awesome mechanical device we have available to us today. Most of us just love to shoot and are intrigued by firearms. We read books, magazine articles, surf the Internet, and watch shows on the Outdoor channel to absorb as much info as we can about this sport we love. A lifetime of interest based on an initial spark of desire to know more. The manufacturer starts here.

Note taken. I plan on integrating the best of the 700 years it has taken. My first step is to come up with a company name

[cdrissel]

My first step would be to find a market and research it.

[Jim Norman]

How to become a Millionaire Fast!

Begin with several million dollars. Start up a Firearms Manufacturing Company dedicated to the sport shooter. Invest most of the several millions of dollars into said start-up. Reserve one million dollars.

Watch company likely flounder as the market is both well saturated and currently pretty soft with a real fear of extreme regulation looming.

Look a the million you have reserved and realize where you started out a Multi-Millionaire, you are now finally a Millionaire.

Seriously, you need to research the market you need to serve as well as the one you'd like to serve. You need to realize that just in the US alone you have multiple hurdles to clear to sell in all 50 states unless you intend to do a Barrett and refuse to sel in certain markets, thus seriously reducing your market potential.

You need to make sure that what ever final product you build will be accepted by the various organizations that sanction the sports you are wanting to sell to and that the gunsmith community will be able to work on your product, meaning that you'll need available parts that can be modified to keep the shooters happy. Be honest, no one really shoots a stock gun anymore.

You'll need to make sure all the optional equipment will be made available in quantities large enough to allow for decent pricing for the Joe Average to afford to purchase it.

And what ever you build will have to be demonstably better than anythng else out there to get a few big name shooters to sign on and win with it to drive the other shooters to buy.

Keep in mind most of the guns we shoot are highly modified military or police guns. Even the S_I lines are essentially highly modified 100 year old designs. The Glocks, HS-XD, Sig, CZ and Beretta are all used by competitors and they build guns for us, but the base models have large delivery contracts to military or police organizations.

Good Luck

[Sam]

Seriously SkyScrapin, I would consider moving to Montana or another great choice Glenrock, Wyoming. When you have the resources of the entire community behind you, helping you in the name of small business development, you can have really good results.

First step: Start with a solid business plan and run it by some people who can tell you where your plan is weak and where it is strong. I'd spend two weeks minimum researching and writing the business plan before doing anything else. Pick it apart. Have others pick it apart. For dang sure the market place is going to pick your company and your products apart, you may as well get in practice. Also, this process will show you and any investors if the company is likely to be viable.

Prepare yourself physically, mentally, and spiritually for for 80 hour work weeks. Make sure your family is fully behind the project and is willing to endure the exhaustive amount of work you are committing to. Carefully consider the fact that most business ventures fail. You can lose a quarter million in Vegas a hell of a lot easier and have a lot more fun doing it than if you try to start a manufacturing business in the weakest economy in the last 40 years. Like John Dunn's father says, "Education is always expensive".

All that being said, Tally Ho! Best of luck, Go get 'em! -Sam

[Jman]

An unwise start up venture IMO. The only feasible route currently is to buy an existing manufacturer with a solid tract record and a couple years of orders in front of them.

I'm of the opinion that a sure fire way of destroying your passion for shooting and firearms is to do full time business in the firearms industry.

Just sayin'

Jim

[Fast Shooter Wannabe]

SkyScrapin'

Follow your dream if that is your passion and don't listen to anyone who doesn't want to help you achieve it. History is littered with success stories that if they had given up throughout their troubles, failures, or "bumps in the road" would never have made it. One of my favorite inspiring stories is Jack Canfield-who wrote Chicken Soup for the Soul- was turned down by 144 publishers before he found one who would publish his book. The publisher only would do a 20,000 book run to boot w/only 10,000 ordered. Jack and his partner-Mark Victor Hansen agreed to buy what ever did not sell of the second 10,000 and ran with it. They then marketed their books by providing free copies to the OJ jurors to get exposure. That's tenacity, sticktoitiveness, and drive.

Jason

[McAllyn]

SS,

I'm a big believer in giving something a shot, if it's REALLY what you want. Just make sure you can honestly say to yourself just before you open the doors the first day, "I've done everything in my power to make this work."

Logistically, you'll need to consider in-house design and manufacturing vs. outsourced. In-house you're looking about 100k for a minimal amount of quality machining equipment and tooling. Then, unless you're the qualified one, you're looking at labour charges to have someone run it. CAD gear and software will run you roughly 10k, and again, unless you're the one running it, you need someone to do your design work. You could outsource the manufacturing and design stuff to begin with. You'd be paying a premium for the services, but you wouldn't have the major capitol outlay at the start. You also have to consider shipping, receiving, and warehousing equipment and staff.

Regulation wise, you'll need a manufacturers FFL, plus any special certifications or licenses from states that require such.

Startup advertising budgets will vary, but if you skimp here, you'll pay the price (so to speak.)

My guestimate, you'd need about $250k to open the doors, and at least that in working capital for the first year. That's assuming you have only about 5 people working for you.

Mac

[Loves2Shoot]

I wouldn't even think about it without $500K in the bank and a house that was paid for.

[belus]

My first step would be to find a market and research it.

+1

I haven't started a company before, but I've helped a couple people figure out various details of starting theirs. I've typically done market research or product design, depending on their need.

If you want to do this as a hobby, now is a great time. Machining equipment seems to be turning up cheap as companies fail in the recession and you can probably build a first class garage workshop for the price of a nice car.

If you want to make a living making your own firearms... there's a lot more to think about before you start planning for the equipment you need.

This is a (now cheap) book that I recommend you take a look at to get an idea of what questions need to be answered before committing: http://www.amazon.com/Portable-MBA-Entrepr...e/dp/0471160784

First and foremost I recommend you get a very solid idea of the market and where you might fit in it. What's your special talent or advantage over what's already out there? Is that a strong enough position from which to launch a company? This talent could be as tangible as a new action design or as abstract as excellent connections with people already in the industry.

SWHC (Smith & Wesson Holding Corporation) has a net profit margin 3% which would make me very skeptical about the ability to make money in the firearms world as a small manufacturer. http://www.google.com/finance?q=SWHC

Ruger does a little better at just under 5% http://www.google.com/finance?q=ruger

Check a couple well known companies in other industries... they're probably closer to 15%.

[SkyScrapin]

I wouldn't even think about it without $500K in the bank and a house that was paid for.

I forgot to say that money wasn't an issue. This is a good point to bring up though due to all the negativity that people have been saying so far.

Anyways, good thinking.

Appreciate all the great ideas so far. As for the negative ones... disregard this thread.

I will get back to you guys here in a few days. I have been drawing up allllll sorts of business plans.

My goals is:

1. Make every cops gun that they carry, the gun that I produce.

2. Never fall short of demand.

3. Make the gun society happy and supportive of my venture.

Preston

[Loves2Shoot]

If money is no object, then I hope have a great time and the best of luck. Your original post said a couple hundred K and that is not very much money to start manufacturing guns, especially "cop guns." If money is truly no object and making money isn't important, then it sounds like a great gig to me. Cop guns are bought by bean counters so you need to make an inexpensive product, and that means LOTS of them. You also need a lot of patience, say 5-10 years, as it seems the LEO community is very slow to adapt products that have not been very proven. All the big boys want the cop market and spend tons of money to get the business, and I would venture to say that would be the hardest, most expensive market to get.

I would suggest making bad ass guns that people who want to spend good money on guns want, not cop guns, especially if you want to make them in the USA.

[SkyScrapin]

If money is no object, then I hope have a great time and the best of luck. Your original post said a couple hundred K and that is not very much money to start manufacturing guns, especially "cop guns." If money is truly no object and making money isn't important, then it sounds like a great gig to me. Cop guns are bought by bean counters so you need to make an inexpensive product, and that means LOTS of them. You also need a lot of patience, say 5-10 years, as it seems the LEO community is very slow to adapt products that have not been very proven. All the big boys want the cop market and spend tons of money to get the business, and I would venture to say that would be the hardest, most expensive market to get.

I would suggest making bad ass guns that people who want to spend good money on guns want, not cop guns, especially if you want to make them in the USA.

Your right. My way off thought was to make a badass gun that has a younger person's appeal. I am SERIOUSLY dedicated to make this work. I am sure that there is a huge margin that says I will fail but mistakes are how we learn. I understand that 5-10 years would be a good number even to get my product known. I was shooting more for 15-20. When I said money is no object, what I was referring too was the amount of investers I have that are very very wealthy. Personally, I would like to start off w/ a low number but ofcourse if I hit a big deal, I need to be capable of pumping guns out left and right.

Guns (of any sort) are my #1 passion. Sure, I have other hobbies but when it come down to it, guns are more interesting and I can't even begin to explain the number of hours I have been researching. Ex: I used to sit on the computer in my earlier years from 9am until 4am the following day. It's what is most interesting to me and what I want to do for a living. If I end creating a HUGE company, that is only an added bonus. I intend to make it profitable only for the sake of me drawing an average income.

When it comes to mechanics and machines. My family has a variety of knowledge and skills that could easily start up a company and make some prototypes. My old lady retired as a sales exec from EDS. My old man runs a truckin company, so moving products wouldn't be difficult. The brother is into logistics and highly qualified. He would easily be able drive costs down and save money in the long run. My uncle and cousins are both highly trained mechanical engineers (nuff said). In the end, when it comes to family, we don't screw each other, we help each other (atleast my family). We sorta have unique relationships with each other due to past health issues and what not. Everyone says not to work for a family member but I don't see how this wouldn't be a great foundation to start from.

In you peoples honest opinion, as my family as faculty, would this not be a great foundation? I wanna make sure I am headed in the right path.

Thanks to all you guys partisipating in this thread. I have taken notes on just about everyones comments. There is so much to learn and then some. I am in the developmental stages and am just throwing ideas around. In about 7 months I should be applying for the manufacturing FFL. I thought it was kind of cool looking into the lisensing. You can go on the ATF's website and look at the number of pistols STI has produced in I think 2008. They made I think more than 7,000. To me that is impressive. You do the math. That is pretty much where I see myself in about -10 years.

Ofcourse I have high hopes but keep the suggestions coming! If you guys/gals would, please tell me what you would like in a pistol that you have yet to see. I have some pretty neat ideas myself but there are so many ways to make a firearm unique, starting with the action.

Thanks,

Preston

[LadyinBlue]

The first question you might answer is do you love the manufacturing industry or do you love the firearms industry specifically. With such an undertaking as you have described, you will have to be 100% dedicated to your product and your customers. Without the “hobbyist” attitude or a lifetime of involvement in the use of your products it might be difficult to survive the arduous routine and hurdles that occur in running a business.

Someone entering the electronics industry might be considered a “tech geek” from the years of gamer activities or be consumed by every detail of the evolution of personal computers. Some even hang out in Radio Shack eyeballing every component available for retail purchase and imagine how they will build their new automated dog food dispenser.

The same is true for the firearms industry; years of experience in hunting have given some creative people ideas for new products that make sense and offer real solutions to the hunting experience. A competitive shooter has encountered the nuances in the numerous products available today; some work, some just look cool.

The expertise you will find here in this forum is vast and helpful and sometimes brutally honest. Choosing to enter into a business endeavor with the support of your entire family as you have described will be your greatest asset. Good choice on both!

My previous post to this thread was not intended to appear negative but to give you a sense of reality towards an enterprise of this magnitude. (I’ve seen this first hand and have some experience) You cannot approach this endeavor like you would a homework assignment for a marketing class at the university. You have to have real world strengths, partnerships, experiences and admiration to follow the great ones like John Moses Browning, Samuel Colt, John Garand and Eugene Stoner.

Best wishes to you, your business partners and family members.

Thank you for posting this thread and thanks to all who shared invaluable information.

[Bigpops]

Real quick - are you still looking for a name?

May sound sort of vague, but being semi new to all of this has shown me one thing. Even the high dollar named guns need help. It would be nice to get a gun that runs, straight out of the box. One should not need to spend money on aftermarket stuff just to have a dependable weapon or mag. (though some of us just like buying crap anyway )

Edited June 5, 2009 by Bigpops

[SkyScrapin]

LadyinBlue - thanks for the input. I realize I have lots and lots of info I have to sort through before making this a full blown opporation. I am both, a hobbyist and a enthusiast. My goal is to have something that functions flawlessly out of the box and can pretty much compete with the Glock (they set the standards high, which is good right?).

Bigpops - I have some names rumbling around in my head (and on paper) but I something extraordinary. When someone thinks Colt, a few things come to mind. They have been around for over a century. They are in plenty of western movies. People know their 1911s as being the first... There ARs are exeptional. Also, glock has one key thing, "reliability." I am trying to create a name that no one will forget. It will need to be simple such as Colt and Glock.

Anyhow, it is 3am in dallas and I am tired.

Thanks for the help guys,

Preston

[leam]

I'll have to admit, when I asked a varient of the same question the feedback was just as honest and informative. Don't view it as negative; appreciate the honesty your shooting "family" is providing. You've saved at least $200,000 already!

That said, here are some more thoughts. First, read Robert Kiyosaki's "Before you quit your job". He gives 5 areas you need to have developed for your business. Second, visit SCORE.org and spend lots of time learning business stuff. Get this from their perspective. Sounds like your family has some great capabilities to support you with, but if you're starting your own company you need to have more than one way of looking at things. Bring something new to the table and you can potentially help the other family businesses. Read Micheal Gerber, "The E Myth" stuff for being an entrepreneur, for the same reason.

Now, let's look at Glock from a systems perspective. They have a great gun that does some stuff well. It has flaws, but they have such a fantastic system at reasonable prices that volume does wonders. They have Glock gun, Glock matches, Glock Armorers courses, Glock Blue training guns, Glock Red Training guns, Glock Teams competing, Glock apparel, Glock manuals for competition, Glock marketing with Gunny, Glock in Georgia, which is a very gun friendly state from what I've seen.

Look at where Glocks fail, though, and you might find a market. I see two major issues. First, the barrels require higher priced jacket bullets or there is the perception and real risk of danger. If you want to compete, solve that problem. Second, Glock has military and LE contracts; both communities don't shoot nearly as much as a rank competitor and the fact that the Glock may or may not fit your hand doesn't matter. I'd love Glock to death if their gun fit my hand! The Sig SP2022 large grip was the closest I've come to personal grip perfection, and it made a big jump in accuracy.

So my suggestion would be to solve some current problems while you build your company's capabilities. Don't start from the ground up, but answer one niche, build your rapport with the community, and make the product available to the USPSA community. Other shooting sports are great, but the level of critique here will make sure your product doesn't have any critical flaws by the time you're ready for mass market. Don't shoot for the LEO community right now, as they are paid on taxes, which are already hurting because of the depression. Develop product, community, systems, and reputation now for the upswing.

Leam

[SkyScrapin]

You've saved at least $200,000 already!

Well said! I will take all that you have put together into consideration. Seems like lots of valuable data in just one post.

Preston

[Ray_Z]

I don' t have a background in tool and die so I'd never be able to make a better mousetrap for the shooting community. I had thought of opening an indoor range though. We only have one in town, and I really think there's room for another. I thought long and hard about it for maybe 5 minutes. Then I realized that with one stroke of a pen some idiot in Washington could put you out of business at a minutes notice.

[Fast Shooter Wannabe]

There are always reasons not to do it. If this is a life long oal or passion. go for it. Get as much help as you can. Keep us posted.

Jason

[McAllyn]

I admire your enthusiasm, and wish you the best in your endeavor.

Since my interest is peaked, can I ask you, are you looking at developing an entirely new platform, or working off of a current design?

[SkyScrapin]

are you looking at developing an entirely new platform, or working off of a current design?

Entirely new platform. The plan is to come up with something unique in style but have the edge when it comes to newer technology. Where other companies skimp, this new company will have the best parts available. Best of all, they will come stock!

I haven't any licenses yet buuuuut I have been playing with SolidWorks. Shouldn't be too long before I come up with a picture of the prototype. To long as in, a few months. I will definitely keep the BEnos community up to date.

Thanks for all the valuable information.

Preston

[Bodacious]

When you get to that point please post how much your attorneys fees are for your patent application. I am curious as to how much that costs as I have some ideas of my own.

[SkyScrapin]

When you get to that point please post how much your attorneys fees are for your patent application. I am curious as to how much that costs as I have some ideas of my own.

$25,000, but completely worth it.

Preston