What EXACTLY do you see?

[Z32MadMan]

Being on this forum I have begun to understand the importance of seeing. So I ask you, while shooting what do you see EXACTLY? I'm refering to the relationship between the front sight, rear sight, and the target. Now consider that there are two "types" of eye focus.

Call 1) clarity focus: Clarity focus would be you eyes ability to bring objects into clear focus at different distances. ( For instance if you hold you thumb in front of you and bring it into clear focus, then while still looking at your thumb you bring the wall into focus and now your thumb is blurry.

Call 2) Point Focus: This is the where your two eye come together to meet. So if you hold your thumb up and point focus on it, you will see a double image of the picture on the wall. If you point focus on the wall, you will see a double image of your thumb.

Okay so how are you focusing on the target, front and rear sight? You can only point focus one thing at a time. So when your shooting, what are you seeing?

A ) one target, with two guns (one right in front of you dominant eye and another floating next to it that you don't pay much attention to)

B ) one front sight, with two targets and two rear sights

I'm guessing it's A, which is what I do. Because if you point focus on the front sight it gets pretty confusing with two rear sights very close together, not to mention a double image of the target.

Now where is your clarity focus? Mine has always been on the target, with blurry sights. Because if I focus clearly on the front sight then my point focus follows and the target image doubles.

In an ideal world I would say the best situation would be to have a point focus on the target, a dominant eye clarity focus on the front sight (so it's nice and clear), and a nondominant eye clarity focus on the target. So when you mind overlaps the two you have a clear target and a clear front sight.

It's easy having clarity focus on the front sight when shooting with one eye open. But open the other and it seems to go out the window.

Usually I don't have an issue seeing both the target and front sight decently well. But I was at a match this weekend that involved shooting targets at 50 yards (I was "that guy" shooting all pistol at a 3 gun match haha). Now at 50 yards you either have a clear target and an very blurry front sight, or a clear front sight and a target that you can barely outline.

So I ask you all: What do you see? What is in clear focus? What is blurry? What do you see a double image of?

Edited June 2, 2009 by Z32MadMan

[Jman]

I don't see double. I see what I want to shoot using a sharp front sight, slightly fuzzy rear sight and target. Pretty much it.

Jim

[Matt Griffin]

I see front sight, light on the side of the front sight, kinda see the rear sight, don't really see the target at the moment of break. On the way to the break I see the target, the front sight come in, the sight group stop where I want to shoot, my focus comes to the front sight, I refine the picture as above, then break.

I will say this: It's hard. It takes a long time to automate everything else to the point that you can spend the attention on the front sight.

I also squint a bit, I'm cross-dominant and I can't shoot through the double image. If you can, go with it.

H.

[IronEqualizer]

Only what I need to see to make two A's on the target I am shooting at. Nothing more nothing less. What I need to see changes from target to target according to distance and difficulty of the shot. The way I trigger the shot will also change from target to target and according to the distance and difficulty of the shot.

AL

[MemphisMechanic]

"What I need to see" means this to me:

1) Up front in a stage I have 2 paper down on the ground, three feet away from the table I will be drawing the gun from:

At the beep, I'm target-focused and ripping off four shots as soon as I see the blurry sights anywhere superimposed over the A-zone. It's not point shooting, because I'm using the sights. Or at least the slide. I'll start moving (backing out, planting foot for takeoff, or just plain starting to lean) halfway through the first, or upon transitioning to the second target. But I won't look away toward my next position, because I'm not point-shooting, and that leads to a miss or a pair of Cs/Ds nearly every time.

2) I sprint over to a barricade (burning a full second compared to Matt/Jake/Kyle/Ben setting up) and engage 4 paper targets, and a popper which activates a swinger (shot from next position) at 10 yards:

The paper get a soft target focus. I don't believe I'm spot-welded to either the front sight, nor the targets. Somewhere in the middle. But if I'm surprised to walk down there and see a Delta or Mike, I did it wrong. I see the front sight lift, but not in razor-sharp focus. Pretty much the same with the popper, but if it's critical and/or the final target (like my activator here) I want to see the front sight lift in crystal clarity from the face of the right popper (seeing double) and KNOW it's a good hit, so I can bolt to the next position, rather than watch it fall to be sure.

3) That swinger, at 15 yards, and a pair of 6" plates at 20:

We've magically left the USPSA stage, and I'm now at an indoor range shooting a bullseye match. I want every bit of attention on two things: Where the front sight is, and how I'm pressing the trigger. The targets are blurry and/or double. But that's not a problem, because I brought spotted the desired point target, and switched focus to the front sight as it comes into position. I know which fuzzy blur needs a hole placed in it - the one in front of my front post. Not the hazy one over there on the left. Don't think about what you're seeing. Just extend the gun, watch that front sight like a hawk, and see it lift.

Learning to shoot both-eyes-open with a front-sight focus was hell for me. I learned in dryfire from the highest of ready positions (sights in view with gun pulled near chest) by focusing on a target, transitioning my focus to the front sight just as the gun finished extending, and breaking the shot while seeing double on the target. Double-vision at the target isn't a problem, if you don't shift your focus away from it until the sights are in front of your dominant eye. You still see two targets, but the gun is aimed at the correct one BEFORE they go double.

Edited June 2, 2009 by MemphisMechanic

[shred]

Brian's book has a great description of what-you-see at various distances/targets

[Z32MadMan]

"What I need to see" means this to me:

Learning to shoot both-eyes-open with a front-sight focus was hell for me. I learned in dryfire from the highest of ready positions (sights in view with gun pulled near chest) by focusing on a target, transitioning my focus to the front sight just as the gun finished extending, and breaking the shot while seeing double on the target. Double-vision at the target isn't a problem, if you don't shift your focus away from it until the sights are in front of your dominant eye. You still see two targets, but the gun is aimed at the correct one BEFORE they go double.

That's what I was looking for, and also what I have been neglecting this entire time. I have been concentrating on the front sight's relationship to the target, not switching from target to sight focus.

Time for some more dryfire...

Thanks!

[jkrispies]

Brian's book has a great description of what-you-see at various distances/targets

+1

If you check out Brian's book, he'll go into different levels of sight focus. For instance, if there's a target that's only a few few feet in front of the gun, I don't even bother with the sights-- I'm basically aligning the slide with the target area and letting 'er rip.

On the flip side, if the target is five or so yards out, I'll focus hard on the intended target, bring the gun/sights to my level of vision, and then shift to a hard focus on the front sight, with the rear sights slightly less blurry than the target. (For an example, see my avatar.) To be more specific, I'm concentrating on the top of the sight blade, aligning it with the top of the rear notch, and evening out the amount of light protruding on either side of the sight blade... but my hard focus is on the top of the sight blade. If the COF calls for a double tap, I try to maintain my focus on the front sight through the muzzle flip without shifting back to target, but if it's a long shot, I might have to do a quick refocus to the target.

You mentioned dry fire, and here's something I've started doing which has helped: I have several "courses of fire" set up in my garage, with each target marked "A," "B," etc. The lettering isn't huge... maybe 1 inch square letters with targets out 6-7 yards. My primary intention in the dryfire is strong technique and true visual focus, not speed per se. After each dryfire run I'll review in my mind, "Could I read the letter on each target when I broke the trigger?" If the answer is yes, then my focus was poor-- I was looking at the target and not the sights. On the flip side, if I could see the imperfections on the face of the sight blade, then I had strong focus.

A better shooter may do it differently, but that's where I'm at.

Edited June 2, 2009 by jkrispies

[Sarge]

I think for us older shooters it is counter productive to try to focus on the front sight. I just flat out can't really do it without way too much, time consuming, focusing effort. My whole life I have focused on the target and just let my properly aligned sights interfere with my target picture. I am sure this is in a lot of books as being wrong in this sport but I generally hit what I am shooting at and that is all that matters to me at this stage of the game.

I have taken more than a few new shooters to the range who could only shoot with one eye open. When they try two eyes open I tell them what works for me and most times it works for them. Besides, if the target were a real bad guy and I can only focus on one thing it is going to be his actions or movements.

[benos]

Being on this forum I have begun to understand the importance of seeing. So I ask you, while shooting what do you see EXACTLY? I'm refering to the relationship between the front sight, rear sight, and the target. Now consider that there are two "types" of eye focus.

Call 1) clarity focus: Clarity focus would be you eyes ability to bring objects into clear focus at different distances. ( For instance if you hold you thumb in front of you and bring it into clear focus, then while still looking at your thumb you bring the wall into focus and now your thumb is blurry.

Call 2) Point Focus: This is the where your two eye come together to meet. So if you hold your thumb up and point focus on it, you will see a double image of the picture on the wall. If you point focus on the wall, you will see a double image of your thumb.

Okay so how are you focusing on the target, front and rear sight? You can only point focus one thing at a time. So when your shooting, what are you seeing?

A ) one target, with two guns (one right in front of you dominant eye and another floating next to it that you don't pay much attention to)

B ) one front sight, with two targets and two rear sights

I'm guessing it's A, which is what I do. Because if you point focus on the front sight it gets pretty confusing with two rear sights very close together, not to mention a double image of the target.

Now where is your clarity focus? Mine has always been on the target, with blurry sights. Because if I focus clearly on the front sight then my point focus follows and the target image doubles.

In an ideal world I would say the best situation would be to have a point focus on the target, a dominant eye clarity focus on the front sight (so it's nice and clear), and a nondominant eye clarity focus on the target. So when you mind overlaps the two you have a clear target and a clear front sight.

It's easy having clarity focus on the front sight when shooting with one eye open. But open the other and it seems to go out the window.

Usually I don't have an issue seeing both the target and front sight decently well. But I was at a match this weekend that involved shooting targets at 50 yards (I was "that guy" shooting all pistol at a 3 gun match haha). Now at 50 yards you either have a clear target and an very blurry front sight, or a clear front sight and a target that you can barely outline.

So I ask you all: What do you see? What is in clear focus? What is blurry? What do you see a double image of?

From your post, I'm worried that you are looking for one "right" way to see, all the time.

There's lots of great threads on this topic. I did a subject line only search for "seeing" in this forum only and got this:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...hlite=%2Bseeing

And the same thing but only with "see":

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?...highlite=%2Bsee

I see front sight, light on the side of the front sight, kinda see the rear sight, don't really see the target at the moment of break. On the way to the break I see the target, the front sight come in, the sight group stop where I want to shoot, my focus comes to the front sight, I refine the picture as above, then break.

I will say this: It's hard. It takes a long time to automate everything else to the point that you can spend the attention on the front sight.

I also squint a bit, I'm cross-dominant and I can't shoot through the double image. If you can, go with it.

H.

Again, good stuff from Houngan. And it's especially good for "type 3" shots. (Targets that need to be located, shot, and called with some degree of precision.)

be

[Z32MadMan]

Thanks for the post Brian.

I understand the continuum of required sight picture, ranging from muzzle on target to crystal clear front sight. My issue is particularly with the difficult "100% sight picture needed" type of shots. I was using a target focus while concentrating my mind on the slightly fuzzy sights instead of focusing my eyes directly on the front sight. I was doing this because once I focus on the front sight the target image doubles. But as Memphis described, if you bring the sights to the target and THEN transition to a sharp sight focus the sights are already where they need to be on taget. And this makes perfect sense to me.

So now it's time to practice it into being...

Thanks Again!

[Matt Griffin]

As Brian pointed out, I was describing Type 3, but I will say that since I started shooting revolver, I use Type 3 a LOT more than I did with autos. When you absolutely can't drop a shot you learn to find that front sight anywhere past 5 yards. And of course you learn that it isn't really slower. (Only took me three years, Ma!)

H.

[Matt Griffin]

Thanks for the post Brian.

I understand the continuum of required sight picture, ranging from muzzle on target to crystal clear front sight. My issue is particularly with the difficult "100% sight picture needed" type of shots. I was using a target focus while concentrating my mind on the slightly fuzzy sights instead of focusing my eyes directly on the front sight. I was doing this because once I focus on the front sight the target image doubles. But as Memphis described, if you bring the sights to the target and THEN transition to a sharp sight focus the sights are already where they need to be on taget. And this makes perfect sense to me.

So now it's time to practice it into being...

Thanks Again!

Ooh! I've got this one.

I had very good eyesight (still have good eyesight) and like you I could see a crystal clear picture of the sights while using target focus out to pretty much any distance. Also like you, I couldn't see through the doubling if I went to front sight focus. And to be honest, I did very well with that for a year or two. (I squint now, even though I shouldn't.)

But once I started shooting Area matches and Nationals and wanting to win, if not my division then at least a few stages, I suddenly hit a wall. Ds and Mikes were killing me, where I could usually bull through them in local matches and still get the win. So, here's what I figured out:

Although if you have time, a target focus with good eyesight gives you all the clarity you would need to shoot a bullseye-type shot, it robs you of the attention required to execute the shot. Your brain simply can't see and react to sight movement quickly enough (and I'm talking about the tiny movements, like the light on one side of the sight closing off for half a second) to correct it during the final stages of the press, and thus you get too many "Dammit, I SAW the sights!" moments. With real front sight focus, your brain picks up everything that happens, and as I'm sure you're aware, a 10% error in sight group vs. target (target focus judgement) means an outside A/C, whereas a 10% error in front sight vs. rear sight translates outward into a bigger and bigger error, and off the paper after 30 yards or so.

So it's not really the clarity of the sights, it's giving yourself the attention focus you require to keep them there, call them, and make up the shot if necessary. And your brain just can't do that if your eyes aren't on it.

H.

Edit: to be clear, you've already figured this out, I'm just reinforcing. It always helps to know that folks agree with you.

Edited June 3, 2009 by Houngan

[Flexmoney]

Well said!

The sights provide us with constant and accurate feedback.

[Sean Gaines]

it will feel slow, but when you want to speed up your shooting and still shoot A's you need to speed up your eye sight, and that will require practice as well as eye exercises. I never hear anyone really mention this, I feel like I am alone on this one. But I think its real important.

[benos]

it will feel slow, but when you want to speed up your shooting and still shoot A's you need to speed up your eye sight, and that will require practice as well as eye exercises. I never hear anyone really mention this, I feel like I am alone on this one. But I think its real important.

Yes, that's critical.

To shoot accurately more quickly, you have to train yourself to see more in a shorter period of time.

As a beginner - you'll just see and remember fragments of everything you could have seen.

But in the end, when you've really figured it out, it will know that you saw everything.

At that point you'll remember every subtle detail of everything you saw in a string of fire. The sights coming into the first target, pausing, clearly in focus front sight lifting and returning and lifting again; your vision is already moving to find the next target; then as you locate the center of the target, peripherally, you pick up the sights coming into it; by the time the sights are stopped on the center, you have a razor sharp front sight focus, as you see the sight lift... on and on until you call the last shot - unload and show clear with no doubts whatsoever.

Eventually you can learn to program what you need to see, for any string of fire, like that. You create a movie in your head, and the buzzer starts it.

be

[nwb01]

Yes, that's critical.

To shoot accurately more quickly, you have to train yourself to see more in a shorter period of time.

As a beginner - you'll just see and remember fragments of everything you could have seen.

But in the end, when you've really figured it out, it will know that you saw everything.

At that point you'll remember every subtle detail of everything you saw in a string of fire. The sights coming into the first target, pausing, clearly in focus front sight lifting and returning and lifting again; your vision is already moving to find the next target; then as you locate the center of the target, peripherally, you pick up the sights coming into it; by the time the sights are stopped on the center, you have a razor sharp front sight focus, as you see the sight lift... on and on until you call the last shot - unload and show clear with no doubts whatsoever.

Eventually you can learn to program what you need to see, for any string of fire, like that. You create a movie in your head, and the buzzer starts it.

be

Is this visual acuity something that can be gained from practice alone ? Or is it a skill/ trait that some have naturally ?

[Flexmoney]

Is this visual acuity something that can be gained from practice alone ? Or is it a skill/ trait that some have naturally ?

As in...he's a natural...that is why he can do it...I'll never be about to do it like that, because I'm not a natural?

[nwb01]

Is this visual acuity something that can be gained from practice alone ? Or is it a skill/ trait that some have naturally ?

As in...he's a natural...that is why he can do it...I'll never be about to do it like that, because I'm not a natural?

No not at all flex. I am curious of this could be a natural trait in some people and that would assist in the ability to gain the awareness faster than others.

[Matt Griffin]

In my experience, it is a learned thing, not natural. I have excellent eyesight, am physically fit, etc., but I had a ton of trouble with this. It just gets better as you go along. I personally think that as you train, you eliminate things from your attention (grip, trigger control, movement, etc.) so that you get to spend more of it on the sights.

H.

[Z32MadMan]

I have to thank everyone who posted again. This is what I have been missing in my shooting... Now that I know what I need to be doing, it is actually coming very quickly and rather easily. My accuracy has been off and now I know why. Target focus, gun swoops in, just as gun is stopping eyes are snapping to the sight... and now I am getting so much more feedback! There is so much detail! "the front sight was a hair higher just as the shot broke", "there was a bit more light on the right side." I think this is going to take my shot calling from "good/bad" to "on the left alpha charlie line a bit high." Which is really what I needed.

I have only been shooting USPSA for about a year, and believe it or not I was working on seeing the sights lift about 6 months ago. And come to think of it since then it has been target focus with blurry sights. Apparently it slipped from my mind.. I'm really excited to work on this now. I always enjoy having a problem and knowing the solution.

Cheers!

[Z32MadMan]

I got a bit bored tonight and needed a break from what I was doing. So I took out the Nikon to try to show the process. I don't think I have seen anything like this on here before.

1) Drawing, sharp target focus and the point I want to hit.

2) Gun starts coming into view and I'm steering it on to the A zone

3) Gun is now on target, snap to a sharp front sight focus see everything, fuzzy target, "looks right, maybe a touch high"

4) Shot breaks, sights lift in recoil, still focusing on the front sight, tracking it in recoil

5) Gun recovers back on fuzzy target, still have front sight focus ready for the second shot

6) Eyes snap to the next target with a sharp target focus, the spot on the wall

7) Still looking at the target, the gun is coming on to the target

8) Gun is on target, eyes snap to the front sight, target is fuzzy, ready to call the shot "a bit low and left"

9) Shot breaks, sights lift in recoil, still focusing on the front sight, tracking it in recoil

Edited June 4, 2009 by Z32MadMan

[jkrispies]

'

;'[\\

Is this visual acuity something that can be gained from practice alone ? Or is it a skill/ trait that some have naturally ?

As in...he's a natural...that is why he can do it...I'll never be about to do it like that, because I'm not a natural?

No not at all flex. I am curious of this could be a natural trait in some people and that would assist in the ability to gain the awareness faster than others.

As a high school educator, I'm charged with the hard cases. Until I'm able to get a student to understand the concept of self-awareness and then get them to take ownership of their education, that student will tread water. What we're talking about in this thread requires extreme self-awareness, as there's no coach or second party who can know the quality of the visual focus other than the shooter him/herself, and it requires an extreme willingness to self-educate, as nobody can really take steps to fix the problem (and recognize if the chosen fixes are working) other than the shooter him/herself. What this thread is discussing is a more advanced concept than it may first appear, no pun intended.

So to answer the question "Is it a skill/trait that some have naturally?" I don't think there is any such thing as a "natural" skill. Short of a serious disability, I believe anybody can learn anything given the correct attitude and time. However, not everybody has the willingness to put forth the effort to be successful at... anything.

[jkrispies]

I got a bit bored tonight and needed a break from what I was doing. So I took out the Nikon to try to show the process. I don't think I have seen anything like this on here before.

1) Drawing, sharp target focus and the point I want to hit.

2) Gun starts coming into view and I'm steering it on to the A zone

3) Gun is now on target, snap to a sharp front sight focus see everything, fuzzy target, "looks right, maybe a touch high"

4) Shot breaks, sights lift in recoil, still focusing on the front sight, tracking it in recoil

5) Gun recovers back on fuzzy target, still have front sight focus ready for the second shot

6) Eyes snap to the next target with a sharp target focus, the spot on the wall

7) Still looking at the target, the gun is coming on to the target

8) Gun is on target, eyes snap to the front sight, target is fuzzy, ready to call the shot "a bit low and left"

9) Shot breaks, sights lift in recoil, still focusing on the front sight, tracking it in recoil

Yep, I'd say that you've passed the written exam, now head out to the range for your practical testing!

[Matt Griffin]

He's more than passed, that's the first real-picture example I've seen of the process, Kudos! Put another recoil slide after the first shot, and get two targets in the sequence, and that will become a reference material for as long as USPSA lasts. I'm just incredibly impressed by that sequence of shots, I can't say it enough. (well, minus the toilet.)

H.