Starting in chair

[Spray_N_Prey]

Ok a quick question on this one, the WSB stated starting in chair, nothing about back or hands (on purpose - I should know, I wrote the stage) and I was the first shooter out of our squad to shoot. The RO said when I just sat in the chair that my back had to be against the back of chair and I stated no that's not in the WSB, only sitting in the chair, he said "well that's the way the other squad has done it and that's the way we are doing it" and instead of arguing about it and I just shook it off, we had some shooters from another city there and I didn't want to squabble over stuff and make problems, which I guess is my fault.

Sooooooooo

Should that stage of been thrown out or how should it work?

BTW: I talked to the other squad and NOBODY sat with their back in the chair, the RO was roaming with our squad (local matches we take turns RO'ing) so he had no idea what the other squad did.

Edited May 27, 2009 by Spray_N_Prey

[Nik Habicht]

how should it work?

This is where you need to grab your RM......

Consistency is his job.....

....and the rulebook provides some tools....

[G-ManBart]

At most local matches I doubt it would be thrown out because they usually only have four or five stages to start with, but technically, it's probably be the right thing to do.

If the RO was the same guy for all the squads coming to that stage and said he was making each squad start with their back touching the chair, I'd have no issue with it other than he/she should have added it to the WSB as soon as he informed the first squad of same.

The RO in this case was just wrong....the WSB is final and he was adding something to it.

I wouldn't get too spun up about it for a local match as we all know how you can hurt a club with a stupid fight over something like this...it's not really "right" but I wouldn't bother risking the hard feelings involved. R,

[ChuckS]

was this a USPSA match?

ETA: Let me answer my own dumb question: look at what forum he posted in...

Let me rephrase my question: was this a RO who had training? He would of known that if it was not called out in the WSB or the book, it's OK. If the WSB said "start in chair" you could of stood on the chair and been compliant. Just plain wrong.

(You weren't wearing a race holster, were you )

Edited May 27, 2009 by ChuckS

[Spray_N_Prey]

HEHE no race holster, but yeah I wrote the stage on purpose leaving out the position of hands for a reason, I wanted to see who would game it and how they would game it.

So general consenses would be just to let it go in a local match?

BTW: yes the RO is NROI trained (we attended the same class)

[VegasOPM]

I design most of our club's stages and there are lots of interpretations. Usually as the MD, and stage designer I will get questions before a squad starts- but not always. It should be thrown out, but we usually wouldn't. No prizes other than bragging rights in our club matches, so it isn't worth the effort to disallow the stage.

[Pat Miles]

You need to take that boy aside at some point and educate him as to the WSB's. If the previous squad started the stage with their back against the chair that is their choice. Notice I said "choice". That does not mean that the next squads to shoot the stage have to do the same. The WSB's are posted for a very definite reason, so each shooter gets the same exact info regarding the stage.

I wouldn't press too hard to have the stage thrown out but I would sure force the issue if that RO pulled that stunt again.

CYa,

Pat

[JThompson]

Just follow the WSB guys... no need to try and gleen intent, that's where you get into trouble... you go by the letter of the WSB.

IF the WSB doesn't say "back against the chair" then you can plant your left cheek and get ready to rock.

[Will Abrahams]

i would have told the RO "what the other squads do has nothing to do with me." Its their problem for assuming or not thinking about time saving start positions. As long as everyone heard the same stage briefing, how you decide to shoot the stage should not be dictated by what other have done.

[Joe4d]

Leaving out any mention of hand position doesnt make it, "Start with your hands anywhere" it makes it, "hands hanging naturally at sides" (8.2.2). Not sure how sitting in chair would modify that, A much simpler fix would be a more detailed WSB. Vague WSB's cause the vast majority of the disputes in our sport. If you as a course designer wanted people to sit anyway you should have put that in the stage briefing.

[LPatterson]

Let's look at 8.2.2 ..... Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must STAND ERECT, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally at sides. The biggest problem I see with misinterpretation of the rules is when only part of the rules are read. Spray_N_Prey said he wrote the WSB vaguely to see how people would try to GAME the stage so the RO had no right trying to read something into the WSB that wasn't there. I personally would have argued till hell froze over or the MD/RM told me to shut up and shoot. Just because a stage drawing has the minimum parts of 3.2.1 doesn't mean it really satisfies the requirements of the rule. Published courses of fire have been selected with enough time for match management to require stage designers to write real Written Stage Briefings for stages that are used.

When props are used the MD/RM should insure locations are marked and movable props should be fair for all shooters.

[lcs]

Written Stage Briefing rules (in most cases).

[Gregory_k]

You could of added words stating that your back does not need to touch the chair in the WSB

[John Heiter]

I resolved this issue for our club by gaming the chair itself.

I took some old scrap lumber and made a "competition chair". It's really more of a stool with a back on it. It's a little taller than a normal chair which helps the shooter get out of it faster. The seat portion is actually quite narrow and shallow so you can leave easily moving forward or side to side. No need to angle yourself to one or the other. The back of the chair only comes up about 12 inches so you can be "against it" but still leaning foward pretty easily. I also made sure that the back and sides were solid so there was no way to get a mag pouch, holster, etc. hung up on the chair as you go to leave. Finally I added some horizontal bracing across the bottom of the chair legs. It makes it easy to spike the chair into position if you need it to be, and it also prevents the chair from sinking into the mud like we've all seen metal folding chairs do during a match.

[38supPat]

Don'tcha love being told what the intent of the stage you designed is?

[Pat Miles]

You could of added words stating that your back does not need to touch the chair in the WSB

If and when we reach that point we will have lawyers involved and the WSB will be an eighty page document.

CYa,

Pat