Cant get it right

[bones507]

Greetings guys

I have been shooting for quite a while but i have some habits that are holding me way back. My flinch is number one, real PIA to get rid of. I have read a bit on it on here in this section and one thing that has helped a little is doubling up on the ear muffs. While it does help i still find myself jerking it some and my grip i find my strong hand fingers flinching also, this i figure is easier to cure than the wrist flinch but it adds up. On occasion i will try to use my weak hand as the main grip and my strong hand fingers on the outside and this does stop my fingers from flinching but its not doing me any good on the long run. I have also tried digging my fingers into the weak hand while im gripping the gun and once again, its not going to do much good to depend on that. I try to stay focused on the front sight and i swear i am watching it all the way through and i find the shot not going where i expect it to go. Good Groups are rare with me although i do have the occasional good session, just not often enough. I know this is a mental thing but im having a hell of a itme overcoming it, i will sometimes just aim an empty gun at the target and press the trigger and it takes a few pulls before i can stop flinching. It amazes me how the mind works with this but after reading a lot of the posts on here i know it can be overcome. I shoot a lot of revo and SAA also so i wonder if thats throwing me off, i doubt it but i am not sure.

I am going to get Burketts video to see if anything clicks with me there and i have had Brians book for years but im definetly not absorbing something, to say the least, lol.

I shoot once or twice a week outdoors and usually go thru 150-200 rounds per session and im not shooting killer loads either, mostly light lead rounds.

Any help or pointers anyone can throw my way will be greatly appreciated. I know you guys have gone thru this quite a few times with other people and i know it can be annoying to read it again but i figured if i cant learn something off this site with the assembled brains on here then its a lots cause.

Thanks again.

Bones.

[boz1911]

Might want to try some Bill Drills, 6 rounds into the berm, focusing on the front sight. Eventually your eyes will get tired of blinking and you will "see" the front sight lift. That's your key.

[Flexmoney]

Are you using a Weaver grip?

[ihatepickles]

I had a flinch for a while, but I couldn't determine what I was doing during the flinch to steer the bullet off course. I had a friend load 10 or so rounds in my magazines and randomly inserting dummy rounds (snap-caps) in with the real ammo. This let me fire some live ammo but be surprised when the pistol went 'click' and my hamfists were steering the gun down and left. It let me see exactly the reflex my mind was adding. It didn't fix the flinch, but it made me aware of it and it sounds like you're still struggling with what you're body is actually doing. It gave me an idea what was happening and how severe the issue was.

To fix the flinch, I worked on slow fire group shooting. My grip also helped once I sorted it out, and the main point of my grip work that help was learning to apply 2/3 of the grip pressure from my weak hand which allowed me to keep tension out of my strong hand so the trigger pull could be smooth. Doubling up on the hearing protection didn't help me but I respect that it's helped others.

Getting rid of the flinch is key, it allows shot calling. Shot calling is confidence that the bullet will hit where the sights are aligned when the gun goes bang.

[mlmiller1]

You have several great suggestions above here. Have you done much dry firing? That is a great way to help remove the flinch. I don't dry fire as much as I should but still, it helps a lot. Like IHP said, most of your grip should come from your weak hand, thereby relaxing the muscles in your strong hand to "just" pull the trigger. Double plugging is a great idea & helps a lot, once you get your muscles doing what you want them to do. Weak hand, I would say, as much grip as you possibly can, strong hand, as little grip as you can. Get your wife/girlfriend/kids to squeeze your forearm on your strong hand while you are in a shooting stance until you can relax that arm. Once you see how that feels in your head, you can reproduce it at will. Most guys have trouble "relaxing" these strong muscles we all have built over all these years to show off to girls. hahaha.

Good luck, keep at it!

MLM

[Jman]

Here is a link to some GREAT info...

http://www.doublealpha.biz/tip_burkett.htm

Mix a couple dummy rounds (no primer or powder) in your mags.

Slow fire. Very illustrative. Not to be over simplistic but it is just

a mind over matter thing. Your level of desire will determine how

quickly you overcome this. Not necessarily how many rounds you fire.

The link provided is good stuff. Especially the sections dealing with

grip and stance, recoil control, understanding flinch and the outstanding

timing drills. Word hard, good luck.

Jim

[R.Elliott]

Do you have a video camera? If you have access to one, set it up on a tripod on a front 3/4 angle framing only your upper body while you shoot a couple of drills. Look for blinking, trigger mashing, clutching etc. Once you figure out exactly what you are doing you can isolate it and and fix it. But you have to know what it is to proceed.

[Jake Di Vita]

Mix a couple dummy rounds (no primer or powder) in your mags.

Not a fan of this drill at all...99.9% of shooters who do this will move the gun when the hammer falls on the dummy round. There is a difference between a flinch and compensation for recoil. The difference may only be a few hundredths of a second, but this drill does not make that distinction.

#1 is you need to KNOW that if the sights are on the target when the bullet leaves the barrel, it is impossible to miss.

#2 focus as hard as you can on the top middle of the front sight and pull the trigger straight to the rear of the gun without moving the sights.

[jkrispies]

I had a bad flinch once upon a time, caused by me training myself how to shoot as a teenager, and now I have zero flinch. I tried the blank round, balancing a dime on the sight, etc., etc. What cured it was dry fire. Lots and lots of dry fire with a concentration on seeing the front site THROUGH the shot. Basically, you've trained yourself to have a muscle memory reaction because you've done it a few thousand times in live fire. Now you have to train yourself NOT to have the muscle reaction, and the only way that is going to happen is by doing it a few thousand times in dry fire. If you try to mix dry and live fire together, I'll predict that you're going to set yourself backwards because you'll just hit the "reset button" in your brain and go back to the flinch. Cure it first in dry fire, and then baby-step your way back to live fire. Your mileage may vary, but that's what worked for me.

[mlmiller1]

Cure it first in dry fire, and then baby-step your way back to live fire. Your mileage may vary

What he said!!!!

MLM

[bones507]

Well i sort of figured there was no magical cure such as "Hold it this way or do it this way" , But i had to ask anyway, lol.

I guess its just purely a mental thing and will have to be overcome. I will load some dummy rounds up and mix them in and stick with the double muffs but its just going to be concentration that overcomes it. Its tough though.

Thanks for the advice though guys, i will let you know if theres any improvement. I did order Burketts videos so i will see if any lights go on that way.

[mlmiller1]

We have been too subtle, maybe. DRY FIRE! DRY FIRE! DRY FIRE! It is not mental, it is muscle memory more than anything. If you will do repetitive actions(DRY FIRE, DRY FIRE, DRY FIRE) correctly with your hands, you will overcome the improperly learned(flinch) muscle memory you have now.

Dry fire is free, no ammo costs, no need to go to the range, just dry fire in a safe place at home. You will be amazed.

After much dry fire repetition, then go to the range, double plug, but I believe if you use dummy rounds, you will undo most of what you gained. Like JKrispies said about them.

Now, go dry fire some. Then let us know how it is working!

MLM

[jkrispies]

Like JKrispies said about them.

+1

[jkrispies]

We have been too subtle, maybe. DRY FIRE! DRY FIRE! DRY FIRE! It is not mental, it is muscle memory more than anything. If you will do repetitive actions(DRY FIRE, DRY FIRE, DRY FIRE) correctly with your hands, you will overcome the improperly learned(flinch) muscle memory you have now.

Dry fire is free, no ammo costs, no need to go to the range, just dry fire in a safe place at home. You will be amazed.

After much dry fire repetition, then go to the range, double plug, but I believe if you use dummy rounds, you will undo most of what you gained. Like JKrispies said about them.

Now, go dry fire some. Then let us know how it is working!

MLM

Seriously, though, this is correct. It's all about muscle memory, and when it comes to a flinch the only way you can truly control and know what those muscles are doing is in a dry fire environment-- otherwise the bang stick takes over and you end up flinching again without even knowing it.

Having said that, if you want to be competitive in this game, dry fire is key, regardless. I recently read a quote attributed to Rob Leatham along the lines of 'champions come from their basements doing dryfire.' He was much more eloquent, but you get the point. If you won't listen to us, listen to The Great One!

Edited May 27, 2009 by jkrispies

[bones507]

We have been too subtle, maybe. DRY FIRE! DRY FIRE! DRY FIRE! It is not mental, it is muscle memory more than anything. If you will do repetitive actions(DRY FIRE, DRY FIRE, DRY FIRE) correctly with your hands, you will overcome the improperly learned(flinch) muscle memory you have now.

Dry fire is free, no ammo costs, no need to go to the range, just dry fire in a safe place at home. You will be amazed.

After much dry fire repetition, then go to the range, double plug, but I believe if you use dummy rounds, you will undo most of what you gained. Like JKrispies said about them.

Now, go dry fire some. Then let us know how it is working!

MLM

So in other words, you recommend dry fire ?

Seriosuly though, thanks.

[2alpha]

Dry fire is one of the answers but not the entire solution. Also set up a target at 25 yds and shoot from the best sandbag or rest you can come up with. You want to have no gun movement, hold with the same grip you shoot offhand with. Focus hard on the front site, concentrate on feeling everything in the trigger and try to shoot to the guns potential. In other words shoot groups as good as the gun is capable of, don't be satisfied with anything less. You may be surprised to find that you can pull off a pretty good flinch even on the rest. You will develop trigger control and front sight focus eventually if you keep this up. Only then do some offhand group shooting, same goal shooting to the guns potential.

Baby step into some draw and fire still shooting for groups. Once you can stand there and shoot groups your flinch will be gone. If you fall back into it go back to the group shooting. Unfortunately USPSA shooting has evolved into a game that allows you to get away with many sins, not making judgment just the way I see it. It's possible now to bypass some of the basics and end up with a pretty good finish at most events based on movement and hosing. Every great shooter I know can stand there at 25 yds and shoot a great group for you on demand. That is the goal.

To get back to the main question, except for brand new shooters, flinches if not caused by lack of hearing protection or some physical injury, are caused by visual problems like lack of focus. Hope Brian reads this and chimes in.

[ChrisMcCracken]

Air guns and .22 are other training tools to through in along with dry fire. Someone said on another post recently that air guns are fantastic for exposing errors in the fundamentals of shooting.

The Fundamentals of shooting are:

1. Locate the target (visually, or with the force).

2. Aim or point the gun at the target.

3. Hold the gun there until the gun fires and the bullet has left the barrel.

That's straight from Brian's posts in the past or on his main website (non-forums). I think pulling the trigger without moving the sights from the target is implied within #3. If you can not flinch with an air gun then you can fix your flinch for all shooting.

[G-ManBart]

+1 to an air gun or a .22LR with mild, standard velocity ammo. If you can't shoot them properly you're certainly not going to fix it with anything bigger.

While I normally agree with Jake, I totally disagree about the dummy drill not helping. I get to spend a lot of time working with problem shooters. These aren't the kind of folks you see at matches that are trying to get better....they're not even remotely in the same league....they only wish they were that good. You can explain all day long what a flinch is (I prefer to simply call it anticipation because that encompasses more), what it does, etc, but until they SEE it happen with their own eyes it won't click. When they press the trigger, the gun goes click, and they find the gun pointing a foot low and a foot left, it becomes much more clear to them what they're doing.

Heck, I like to do this to myself when I'm shooting groups. I don't count how many rounds I put in the magazine (works great with an Open gun) and simply shoot until the gun goes click. Lately, as my group shooting has picked up a notch (lot of .22lr practice) when the gun goes click nothing moves other than the vibration you get from the hammer fall. If you can't do that when you know it's coming....heck, the test answer is given to you, there's a problem that needs to be fixed and it's easy for the shooter to see. If I was shooting a stage and the gun went click rather than bang, yeah, I'm going to practically fall forward because I'm driving the gun, post ignition, which isn't at all a flinch (I realize most everyone here knows that).

Beg, borrow or steal (well maybe not steal) a soft-shooting .22 pistol and go back to basics. Shoot into the berm with no target and just observe what the gun does. Try some very precise shots....say a clay pigeon at 50yds and give yourself a reward if you hit it....an ice cream on the way home...whatever. That'll get your mind on the front sight/trigger press and off the bang that's going to happen in your hands. Do some true plinking...soda cans (just pick them up afterwards) so you can see them dance when you hit them (helps you keep from blinking)....in short, have fun with it and forget all the other crap.

If every new shooter started with an airgun, went to a .22, then a .38 wadcutter, then a full .38Spl, etc, etc, almost nobody would have a flinch!

Edited May 28, 2009 by G-ManBart

[Jake Di Vita]

While I normally agree with Jake, I totally disagree about the dummy drill not helping. I get to spend a lot of time working with problem shooters. These aren't the kind of folks you see at matches that are trying to get better....they're not even remotely in the same league....they only wish they were that good. You can explain all day long what a flinch is (I prefer to simply call it anticipation because that encompasses more), what it does, etc, but until they SEE it happen with their own eyes it won't click. When they press the trigger, the gun goes click, and they find the gun pointing a foot low and a foot left, it becomes much more clear to them what they're doing.

I work at a public gun range man, trust me, I know. I deal with this 20 times a day.

All I'm saying, is especially for those people, just having them dry fire at the target allows them to see their lack of trigger control. If I can fix that, then I've won most of the battle. I've never had to address a flinch (and my range in indoors). Simply teaching them to pull the trigger straight to the rear of the gun without moving the sights usually fixes the problem for them without me ever saying the word "flinch."

[G-ManBart]

While I normally agree with Jake, I totally disagree about the dummy drill not helping. I get to spend a lot of time working with problem shooters. These aren't the kind of folks you see at matches that are trying to get better....they're not even remotely in the same league....they only wish they were that good. You can explain all day long what a flinch is (I prefer to simply call it anticipation because that encompasses more), what it does, etc, but until they SEE it happen with their own eyes it won't click. When they press the trigger, the gun goes click, and they find the gun pointing a foot low and a foot left, it becomes much more clear to them what they're doing.

I work at a public gun range man, trust me, I know. I deal with this 20 times a day.

All I'm saying, is especially for those people, just having them dry fire at the target allows them to see their lack of trigger control. If I can fix that, then I've won most of the battle. I've never had to address a flinch (and my range in indoors). Simply teaching them to pull the trigger straight to the rear of the gun without moving the sights usually fixes the problem for them without me ever saying the word "flinch."

Oh, I won't argue that simply showing folks proper trigger manipulation "cures" most problems, I just know it won't work for some of the hard cases. I'm not sure if it means much, but I'm actually often dealing with people that don't want to be at the range, don't really like guns and are simply just trying to get by. The folks you see probably aren't being forced there....well, I hope not I've actually seen someone that had a flinch so bad that they hit the ground, I'm not kidding, ten feet in front of the target shooting a shotgun with slugs from 15yds....and they had no idea why they were missing "but the sights are right there when I press the trigger". Obviously they were blinking and anticipating at the same time....and they were dry firing every night, had hours of instruction showing them proper trigger manipulation etc. While that was a bad case, it's not all that uncommon. When it gets to that point we've got a video setup that we'll put them on that shows both the view of their face and what they're seeing (glasses with a mini camera lense) sight picture-wise....that normally convinces them that they're blinking and pushing the gun all over the place before the trigger press is complete....the fix isn't always easy, but at least they believe us at that point. R,

[Bullzeye]

Wow, these are all great suggestions from you guys. Thats what makes this forum so valuable! Personally, I got rid of my flinch by doing alot of dry fire practice and spending range sessions only shooting 9mm. The 22 or airgun thing never really helped me b/c I think part of my flinch came from the noise.

[bones507]

Tried again today after watching Burketts dvd. Changed my stance so im leaning on the balls of my feet instead of the heels, tried using a straighter weak arm and a bent strong arm, did the dry fire drills, tried concentrating more on the front sight than anything.

Now im worse off than before !!! The flinch isnt so bad but im all over the place, going more high now with a few flinchers but no semblance of a group at all, i mean none. this is serioulsy driving me nuts. Im shooting a Glock 19 with a light load of 125 gr lead under 3.8 grs 231.

All the book reading in the world isnt helping me worth squat. Im am so irritiated i almsot threw the gun over the berm, nothing would go right.

Just totally disgusted.

I seriously need to have someone who knows what the hell hes doing work with me but here in Vegas i dont know of anyone at all. I will try again tomorrow but i dont forsee any bearkthroughs.

[Matt Griffin]

Go easy, tiger. At a guess, you've now trained yourself to know exactly where the trigger breaks, so your flinch is just better-timed. Some things to try:

1. Put all of your attention in the tactile feel of the trigger. I find that this often distracts me enough to not flinch.

2. Look over the top of the gun and try to watch the bullets go down range (need to stand in shade and shoot into sun for this to be relatively easy.) Again, distracts you from what your hands are doing

3. Shoot 5000 rounds. Expensive, but it works.

4. Hold gun with strong hand, push trigger with weak hand index finger, no other contact on gun with weak hand.

5. As 4, but have someone else pull trigger.

My personal pet theory is that too many people grip the gun with their strong hand middle finger, which shares a nerve with the index finger. Try tightening your pinky on the gun, but not your middle finger.

H.

[Singlestack]

Learn to shoot your hold instead of trying to shoot a spot on the target. When the pistol is as still as you can hold it, start pressing the trigger without worrying about the sights moving. In other words, don't try to shoot a spot on the target as your sights pass it. Let the shot suprise you.

[mlmiller1]

How is the dry firing going?

MLM