Scoring on a Disappearing Target

[SRD]

I have a question about scoring on what I considered a disappearing target from a recent match I attended.

At rest, the target was hidden by a no-shoot (only a portion of the very edge of the target was visible at rest -- essentially the border). A popper activated the target which appeared for a moment, and then disappeared again behind the no-shoot. A brand new shooter was a touch slow on the second shot and struck the no-shoot and the target at rest behind it after it appeared and disappeared again. The score given for that second shot was a penalty for hitting the no-shoot, and a miss on the target.

I'm a pretty new shooter myself. When I read 9.9.2 after the fact, I was a bit confused about the scoring. Assuming what I wrote is accurate (and I admit my memory could be at fault), was it appropriate to score a miss on the target in this case?

[High Lord Gomer]

I read it as you do...that it should have been a No-Penalty-Miss.

[Lee King]

If the target is truly a disappearing target, there is a "No Penalty Miss". On the scoresheet, you must account for all required rounds. I.e. if the course of fire is 28 rounds, the scoresheet must total 28. If 1 target is disappearing, the scoresheet should have "miss" boxes (as well as A,B,C etc) for 26 and a "no penalty miss" for 2 instead of the standard miss for a total of 28 rounds.

The question really is, how much of the target must be available to count as "non-disappearing"?

9.9.1 Moving scoring targets which present at least a portion of the highest

scoring area when at rest following the completion of their designed

movement, or which continuously appear and disappear, will always

incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties.

So as long as ANY portion of ANY A zone is visible it is non-disappearing.

[XD Niner]

Yes, assuming that it is completely hidden it is a no penalty miss along wth a penalty for hitting the No Shoot.

[mactiger]

I have a question about scoring on what I considered a disappearing target from a recent match I attended.

At rest, the target was hidden by a no-shoot (only a portion of the very edge of the target was visible at rest -- essentially the border). A popper activated the target which appeared for a moment, and then disappeared again behind the no-shoot. A brand new shooter was a touch slow on the second shot and struck the no-shoot and the target at rest behind it after it appeared and disappeared again. The score given for that second shot was a penalty for hitting the no-shoot, and a miss on the target.

I'm a pretty new shooter myself. When I read 9.9.2 after the fact, I was a bit confused about the scoring. Assuming what I wrote is accurate (and I admit my memory could be at fault), was it appropriate to score a miss on the target in this case?

The no shoot hit counts, the "miss" (impenetrable no-shoot) should have been a no-penalty miss. There are no miss penalties for a target that disappears providing it was activated.

Troy

ETA: Appendix B3 spells out how much A zone must be visible.

Edited May 13, 2009 by mactiger

[Lee King]

Clarification on the No Shoot..

IF the 2nd shot hit the No Shoot and was inside the perforations of the outermost scoring area on the No Shoot, then the target is inpenetrable and the hit on the target behind doesn't count. If it was touching or broke the outside perforation on the No Shoot then you get the penalty for the no-shoot AND the score for the target behind will count.

So presuming the shot was fully in the No Shoot, the score should be 1 No Shoot and 1 no penalty miss provided the target is truly disappearing.

[SRD]

Lots of great replies. Thanks!

The shot was well within the border of the no-shoot.

I was standing by it waiting to paste, and I recall hearing "no-shoot, mike" after it was determined that the hit on the no-shoot and the second shot lined up perfectly when the target was at rest.

I've only shot a couple of matches myself, so I'm learning a lot each time. I will have to study the scoring sheet more carefully next time to be sure I understand a miss in a case like this. A disappearing target seems to be standard on at least one stage at this particular club match.

[BayouSlide]

I've only shot a couple of matches myself, so I'm learning a lot each time. I will have to study the scoring sheet more carefully next time to be sure I understand a miss in a case like this. A disappearing target seems to be standard on at least one stage at this particular club match.

Even as a new shooter, don't be afraid to respectfully question authority...especially if you have your rule book to back you up. R.O.s can make bad calls...I hate to make a bad call, but I hate it worse when I realize I was wrong, it affected a shooter and no one pointed out the error. It's everyone's job on a squad to help make sure the scoring is fair and accurate.

Curtis

Edited May 14, 2009 by BayouSlide

[LPatterson]

This is why it is important for all shooters to read through the rule book before the start of the season. Previous rule books allowed for multiple representations of a target to be non-disappearing not what the target presented at rest. After score sheets are printed it is difficult to go to go back and enter a no penalty miss and then there is the problem of knowing if stats corrected EZ Winscore for the NPM or just entered it as a miss when doing scores which are some times not published for days. The easiest way to know if the match director meant for a target to be dissappearing or not is to help with the setup.

[Nik Habicht]

So as long as ANY portion of ANY A zone is visible it is non-disappearing.

Not quite --- you need either the entire upper A zone to be visible, or at least 25% of the lower A-zone --- less than that, and the target's disappearing.....

[Lee King]

So as long as ANY portion of ANY A zone is visible it is non-disappearing.

Not quite --- you need either the entire upper A zone to be visible, or at least 25% of the lower A-zone --- less than that, and the target's disappearing.....

9.9.1 Moving scoring targets which present at least a portion of the highest

scoring area when at rest following the completion of their designed

movement, or which continuously appear and disappear, will always

incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties

[Lee King]

So as long as ANY portion of ANY A zone is visible it is non-disappearing.

Not quite --- you need either the entire upper A zone to be visible, or at least 25% of the lower A-zone --- less than that, and the target's disappearing.....

9.9.1 Moving scoring targets which present at least a portion of the highest

scoring area when at rest following the completion of their designed

movement, or which continuously appear and disappear, will always

incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties

Wait... I stand corrected with appendix B3... 25% etc.. yes.

[Singlestack]

The easiest way to know if the match director meant for a target to be dissappearing or not is to help with the setup.

If the Match Director meant for it to be a disappearing target it should disappear. Thats the easiest way

[JThompson]

Clarification on the No Shoot..

IF the 2nd shot hit the No Shoot and was inside the perforations of the outermost scoring area on the No Shoot, then the target is inpenetrable and the hit on the target behind doesn't count. If it was touching or broke the outside perforation on the No Shoot then you get the penalty for the no-shoot AND the score for the target behind will count.

So presuming the shot was fully in the No Shoot, the score should be 1 No Shoot and 1 no penalty miss provided the target is truly disappearing.

Yes, there has to be a "portion" of the highest scoring area... ergo A zone.

Everyone covered this well... nothing to add.

Edited May 15, 2009 by JThompson

[Nik Habicht]

So as long as ANY portion of ANY A zone is visible it is non-disappearing.

Not quite --- you need either the entire upper A zone to be visible, or at least 25% of the lower A-zone --- less than that, and the target's disappearing.....

9.9.1 Moving scoring targets which present at least a portion of the highest

scoring area when at rest following the completion of their designed

movement, or which continuously appear and disappear, will always

incur failure to shoot at and/or miss penalties

Wait... I stand corrected with appendix B3... 25% etc.. yes.

I blame the pesky rulebook --- nothing;s ever in one place, and you really have to know/understand the whole thing.....

But then, that's the same for most things worth knowing in life --- they require some effort....

[open17]

I have a question about scoring on what I considered a disappearing target from a recent match I attended.

When you say the target was hidden by a no-shoot "at rest", do you mean

before or after activation?

It kind of sounds like you are describing a swinger. Behind a no-shoot

before activation, swings behind no-shoots at both ends of it's arc after

activation. How much of the target can you see (from ANY shooting position)

after it stops swinging? If you can see 25% of the lower A or the whole upper A

with the target stopped , after activation, then it's not a disappearing target.

[SRD]

I have a question about scoring on what I considered a disappearing target from a recent match I attended.

When you say the target was hidden by a no-shoot "at rest", do you mean

before or after activation?

It kind of sounds like you are describing a swinger. Behind a no-shoot

before activation, swings behind no-shoots at both ends of it's arc after

activation. How much of the target can you see (from ANY shooting position)

after it stops swinging? If you can see 25% of the lower A or the whole upper A

with the target stopped , after activation, then it's not a disappearing target.

My apologies if the description was not clear, but it was indeed a disappearing target. At rest before activation it was hidden behind the no-shoot. After activation it appeared for one swing, and then went back to rest behind the no-shoot. As I mentioned, only a small portion of the border area was visible when the target was at rest both before and after activation.

[Flexmoney]

Disappearing targets really ought to be stipulated as such...in the Written Stage Briefing (WSB).

And, as shooters, when the WSB is read...and before we start shooting...that is the best time to ask questions.

Nip these issues in the bud through good stage design, clearly worded WSB's, and communication.