Cy Soto Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 (edited) I have recently begun shooting an M&P40 in Production because it is the only gun that I have that will consistently ignite Winchester primers (which are the only brand of primers that I have been able to find). I shot this pistol in a match for the first time two weeks ago and, for the first time I managed to finish dead-last because of all misses and a bad jam that prevented me from shooting the last stage (but that is another story). For the next two weeks I practiced with this gun; both live and dry fire. Yesterday I took the gun to the range for another match and I had more misses than I thought to be humanly possible and for the second time I ended up at the bottom of the pack. During the last stage I saw the outline of a bullet that struck a "no-shoot" (that should have been nearly impossible to hit) completely sideways. The RO suggested that, because a lot of the holes on my targets throughout the match looked a bit ragged, that my bullets may be tumbling. I know that a overtightened crimp can cause bullets to tumble but I don't think that this is my problem; I am crimping my bullets to 0.421". So if this is not causing the rounds to keyhole, what else could be causing this problem? FYI: My loads are: 180gr TC bare lead bullets 4.6gr (Sorry, that was a mistake) 2.6gr of Clays 0.421" Crimp 1.130" OAL Shot out of an M&P40 and producing 132PF Edited May 12, 2009 by Cy Soto Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mscott Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 Could your rifling be clogged with lead? I've seen overly dirty rifles have that problem. You might also try a slower burning powder. Just throwing out ideas. I was thinking my minor load with Clays was only 3.2gr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 I was thinking my minor load with Clays was only 3.2gr. 4.6 ?? Ya, my minor Clays load is 3.0-3.2grs. also ?? and thats with plated bullets ? Lead should take even less powder ? What size are the lead bullets ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbs007 Posted May 11, 2009 Share Posted May 11, 2009 Shoot some jacketed bullets to clean out some lead and see how it hits on paper then compare hits with lead bullets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 (edited) Edited for your edit. Edited May 12, 2009 by Seth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougCarden Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 CY, way to much CLAYS.....I would assume that you are melting the base of the bullet. Look at the throat of your barrel and see if it looks leaded.... If you are getting tumbling then you are melting the base and it is yawing as it leaves the barrel. I would try something along the lines or speed of Solo 1000, W-231, etc or the holy grail, VV 320 for what you want.... Good luck, DougC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted May 12, 2009 Author Share Posted May 12, 2009 I just noticed my mistake and I apologize... I meant to write 2.6gr of Clays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 I should have kept my original comments... I got tumbling from not spinning up a heavy bullet fast enough to stabilize. The load felt great, but accuracy disappeared above 15 yards. In my case I bumped the charge up to about a 150pf from the 136 and accuracy reappeared immediately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted May 12, 2009 Author Share Posted May 12, 2009 So along those same lines... Will shooting a lighter bullet (such as a 165gr) at the same ~130PF help to stabilize the bullet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seth Posted May 12, 2009 Share Posted May 12, 2009 I'm no expert, but in order to achieve the same pf, a lighter bullet has to move faster. What fascinated me was how nice it shot under 15 yards and how quickly the group size eroded beyond. I stood at my 25 yard range and watched the group size go from a 1" to HUGE from the 15 yard line to the 25 yard line. The cool thing was that when I chrono'd it, the bullet was moving so slowly (700ish fps) you could see it in a dark backdrop with overhead lights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 First, try running the same load with about 3.0 grs. of clays to see what happens to the accuracy. If thats the problem, Precision Bullets makes a 155gr Moly that would work well also in that PF.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SA Friday Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 Cy, I don't think you have enough velocity to stabilize the bullet. I dont think you have to change bullet or powder, you just have to pump up the velocity. 140-145 pf is far from harsh, still competative, and will probably solve your problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmitchl Posted May 13, 2009 Share Posted May 13, 2009 (edited) I was loading 147 gr 9mm plated bullets with N310 to minor pf and getting tumbling. I tried changing OAL and crimp but never found a real answer. After reading a number of post on this board I think I was trying to get too close to the minimum power factor. I should have pushed them a little faster to stabilize. A little more powder was probably the answer but I've never gone back to them to try. Along the same lines I've tried Clays for 40 minor but did not get good results. It does work very well for 40 major with 220 gr lead. I use Accurate #2 for 40 minor with 180 jacketed or lead. It gives good results but is really dirty. I have to clean throughly every 300 rounds or so to avoid malfunctions. Edited May 13, 2009 by kmitchl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lugnut Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Cy, I don't think you have enough velocity to stabilize the bullet. I dont think you have to change bullet or powder, you just have to pump up the velocity. 140-145 pf is far from harsh, still competative, and will probably solve your problem. That would be my guess as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TonyT Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 I believe that Clays is a bit too hot for loading 40 S&W. I have successfuklly used WST or American Selct with lead bullets at below 800 fps. Buyllets tumble for several,reasons: 1. Undersize and do not fill bore 2. Lead bullets being pushed over theeir reasonable maximums with fast burning powders like Titegroup or Clays 3. Too low a velocity to stabiulize the bullet You can decide which fits your situation. I have recently begun shooting an M&P40 in Production because it is the only gun that I have that will consistently ignite Winchester primers (which are the only brand of primers that I have been able to find). I shot this pistol in a match for the first time two weeks ago and, for the first time I managed to finish dead-last because of all misses and a bad jam that prevented me from shooting the last stage (but that is another story). For the next two weeks I practiced with this gun; both live and dry fire. Yesterday I took the gun to the range for another match and I had more misses than I thought to be humanly possible and for the second time I ended up at the bottom of the pack. During the last stage I saw the outline of a bullet that struck a "no-shoot" (that should have been nearly impossible to hit) completely sideways. The RO suggested that, because a lot of the holes on my targets throughout the match looked a bit ragged, that my bullets may be tumbling. I know that a overtightened crimp can cause bullets to tumble but I don't think that this is my problem; I am crimping my bullets to 0.421". So if this is not causing the rounds to keyhole, what else could be causing this problem? FYI: My loads are: 180gr TC bare lead bullets 4.6gr (Sorry, that was a mistake) 2.6gr of Clays 0.421" Crimp 1.130" OAL Shot out of an M&P40 and producing 132PF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el pres Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Clays is fine for minor .40 if you can get it to work. In Production I ran an XD 5" with 3.0grs of Clays under a Berry's plated 180. 2.8grs worked even better but would not lock back the slide. Its a joke of a load, like shooting airsoft... bump it up a little !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted May 14, 2009 Author Share Posted May 14, 2009 Cy, I don't think you have enough velocity to stabilize the bullet. I dont think you have to change bullet or powder, you just have to pump up the velocity. 140-145 pf is far from harsh, still competative, and will probably solve your problem. I think you are right. I am going to bump up the charge by a few decimals and I hope that this will eliminate the problem but this is going to have to wait until I get the gun back from Smith & Wesson. The gun had to go back because of a broken firing pin. I would have changed it myself but the company won't send parts in the mail; I had to send the gun to them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D. Manley Posted May 14, 2009 Share Posted May 14, 2009 Cy, I don't think you have enough velocity to stabilize the bullet. I dont think you have to change bullet or powder, you just have to pump up the velocity. 140-145 pf is far from harsh, still competative, and will probably solve your problem. I think you are right. I am going to bump up the charge by a few decimals and I hope that this will eliminate the problem but this is going to have to wait until I get the gun back from Smith & Wesson. The gun had to go back because of a broken firing pin. I would have changed it myself but the company won't send parts in the mail; I had to send the gun to them... I think you're on the right track. I've had no issues with Clays from 3.0 to 3.3 grains and even there is ridiculously soft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spray_N_Prey Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 here's another reason for bullet tumbling (with lead) was the Lee factory crimp dies. I changed my 9 and 40 and got horrible tumbling and it took a while for me to realize it was deforming the bullet. went back to the dillon dies and problem went away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted May 20, 2009 Author Share Posted May 20, 2009 here's another reason for bullet tumbling (with lead) was the Lee factory crimp dies. I changed my 9 and 40 and got horrible tumbling and it took a while for me to realize it was deforming the bullet. went back to the dillon dies and problem went away. If the Lee FCD is the culprit in my case, I am stuck between a rock and a hard place. Even though the use of this die hasn't completely eliminated the problem of "glocked" cases failing to chamber, it had minimized the occurrence. Like I said in a previous post, I am still planning on getting a Redding G-rx die but right now they are hard to find. Uniquetek (sp.) has them in stock but they sell them for 25% more than any other internet vendor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Burwell Posted May 20, 2009 Share Posted May 20, 2009 Cy, You tried using the EGW "U" die. It is very good at getting rid of the glock bulge. It also makes bullet set back nearly impossible. I use the EGW "U" anlong with the Lee FCD for all my M&P ammo and never have any problems with keyholing. Of course I run my loads a bit hotter then most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poke_53 Posted June 9, 2009 Share Posted June 9, 2009 Check rifling. Wouldnt it be nice if you could get it to pattern well while keyholing. Imagine hitting something with that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cy Soto Posted June 9, 2009 Author Share Posted June 9, 2009 The M&P went back to S&W to replace a broken striker and, while there, I asked them to check the barrel. The folks at S&W shot a test target at 15 yds and they said that the barrel was well within spec. Now that the pistol is back I tried bumping up my load by two decimals (up to 2.8gr of Clays behind a 180gr TC bare lead bullet) and the problem has disappeared. My first instinct was to blame the gun because I read that others had used the same load that I was using and they claimed to have had great results. I guess I should have tested this load more extensively in this gun to see how it performed for me. Right now I am still a little hesitant to take this gun to another match but I am sure that another few hundred rounds of practice with it will probably change my mind. Thank you all for your great advice and for helping me figure out what was I doing wrong! Cy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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