Penalties?

[Shadow]

Assuming the following written stage description:

START POSITION: Facing downrange standing in shooting box A, arms relaxed at sides. Gun loaded and holstered as per ready condition in rule 8.1.1 and 8.1.2

STAGE PROCEDURE

At start signal, draw and engage T1-6 as they become visible. SCORING

SCORING: Virginia count, 12 rounds, 60 points

TARGETS: 6 IPSC

SCORED HITS: Best 2 per IPSC

START-STOP: Audible - Last shot

PENALTIES: Per current edition of USPSA Rule

Book.

If a Limited 10/Production shooter were to intentionally fire only 11 rounds, engaging all targets, but only firing one round on target six and and intentionally not reloading to fire the 12th round, can anyone think of any penalties (other than the miss penalty) that could be given?

I'd say no, but sometimes my logic (gamer hat on) varies from others.

[ima45dv8]

Nope. Shooter engaged all targets per the WSB.

One miss penalty only.

[Chris Keen]

Trick Question.

Sounds like an illegal stage to me. Virginia Count cannot be used in filed courses (ie. movement) and no more than 9 rounds may be required from any one position (12 in this case).

Am I close, or way off base here ?

[Shadow]

Trick Question.

Sounds like an illegal stage to me. Virginia Count cannot be used in filed courses (ie. movement) and no more than 9 rounds may be required from any one position (12 in this case).

Am I close, or way off base here ?

No trick, this is the description posted for a stage in the upcoming NC state match. One would assume (I know, I know) that Sedro approved the stages before they were posted. Stage is a standard barricade with targets on both sides.

[hf219]

Edited April 21, 2009 by hf219

[hf219]

Edited April 21, 2009 by hf219

[Gary Stevens]

Unless something has changed, if the targets are 3 visible from one side of the barricade and 3 are visisble from the other side of the barricade it is two views, assuming you can't lean around and shoot all of them from one side. Therefore the 8 round rule is met.

As to the failure to fire the last shot, it is one miss penalty.

[hf219]

It looks like your talking about stage 2. If so the way it looks and with wording "At start signal, draw and engage T1-T6 as they become visible." It may not give you the ability to shoot all six targets from one spot. The No Shoots and there placement may very well prevent that and purposely make you have to move around within Box A. If so, then yes one Mike down fifteen points on a sixty point course. However little the movement I dont think your gonna make up the fifteen point loss against the time gained. Once again, thats with no other penalties, foot faults, no shoots, etc. H!

Edited April 21, 2009 by hf219

[Shadow]

I am referrring to stage 2. A high hit factor of 10+ could make not doing the reload a wash/advantage, depending on one's reloading skills and the target placement, especially if its "illegal" as Gary mentioned and you could lean and get them all from one side. Just a consideration. And of course, stages always lookdifferent when they're set up.

[Scott R]

The question of the legality of this stage has not been answered yet (unless I missed it). If it were Comstock it would be OK, but this stage as written does not appear to be legal.

9.2.3.2 Virginia Count must use paper targets exclusively, and must

only be used for Standard Exercises, Classifiers or Short

Courses

It is not a Standard Exercise....

1.2.2.1 “Standard Exercises” - Courses of fire consisting of two or more

separately timed component strings. Scores, with any penalties

deducted, are accumulated on completion of the course of fire to

produce the final stage results. Standard Exercises must only be

scored using Virginia Count or Fixed Time. The course of fire

for each component string may require a specific shooting position,

procedure and/or one or more mandatory reloads. Standard

Exercises must not require more than 24 rounds to complete.

Component strings must not require more than 6 rounds (12

rounds if a mandatory reload is specified).

It is not a Classifier.

And it is not a Short couse....

1.2.1.1 “Short Courses” must not require more than 8 rounds to complete

and no more than 2 shooting locations.

Is there something I am missing? How is this a legal course of fire?

[hf219]

Scott R, yes this should clear it up. How do you suppose they make classifiers? Or simply restated another way how do classifiers become a classifier.

Edited April 21, 2009 by hf219

[JThompson]

Scott R, yes this should clear it up. How do you suppose they make classifiers? Or simply restated another way how do classifiers become a classifier.

A lot of classifiers have been grandfathered because we need to have them. They are illegal in that you could not shoot them without using the "classifier" rules. It is my understanding that they will be phased out as new classifiers are created, in part, from the CRO course.

From here forward it must be a legal stage at the national level to become a classifier.

[hf219]

Scott R, yes this should clear it up. How do you suppose they make classifiers? Or simply restated another way how do classifiers become a classifier.

A lot of classifiers have been grandfathered because we need to have them. They are illegal in that you could not shoot them without using the "classifier" rules. It is my understanding that they will be phased out as new classifiers are created, in part, from the CRO course.

From here forward it must be a legal stage at the national level to become a classifier.

Am I to take what your saying is that the only classifiers that will ever be created will only happen at a National? Yes there are classifiers that have been removed due to their composition. Over the past few years Ive seen quite a few classifiers pulled for one reason or another. Stages have been shot at Area match's which subsequently became classifiers as well. Steeler Standards and Area 4 Standards come to mind. Thus the earlier post, How do you suppose they make a classifier? All classifiers start out as an illegal stage at level III matches due to their design. They are not a classifier or standard exercise yet. Its alittle above my pay grade at this point as to how they make it a classifier beyond a Level III match. I dont know what guidelines are used to qualify a COF to become a classifier. I would imagine that they would have to have enough GM's in each division in order to set the HHF though. H!

Edited April 21, 2009 by hf219

[dajarrel]

Scott R, yes this should clear it up. How do you suppose they make classifiers? Or simply restated another way how do classifiers become a classifier.

.....From here forward it must be a legal stage at the national level to become a classifier.

Am I to take what your saying is that the only classifiers that will ever be created will only happen at a National? ........

I think what he is saying is that a classifer would have to be legal to shoot at a Nationals, not that it would have to be shot there.

dj

[Nik Habicht]

How do you suppose they make a classifier? All classifiers start out as an illegal stage at level III matches due to their design. They are not a classifier or standard exercise yet. I dont know what guidelines are used to qualify a COF to become a classifier.

Harry,

look at the 08 classifiers and compare them to the 99s --- you'll see a big difference. In order to create a new classifier, it needs to be legal, so El Presidente could not be designed under the current rules, unless it was specifically designed/approved as a classifer, and then allowed to be shot to set the HHF. Most of the current classifiers are legal by current rules as short or medium stages or as standards.....

[hf219]

How do you suppose they make a classifier? All classifiers start out as an illegal stage at level III matches due to their design. They are not a classifier or standard exercise yet. I dont know what guidelines are used to qualify a COF to become a classifier.

Harry,

look at the 08 classifiers and compare them to the 99s --- you'll see a big difference. In order to create a new classifier, it needs to be legal, so El Presidente could not be designed under the current rules, unless it was specifically designed/approved as a classifer, and then allowed to be shot to set the HHF. Most of the current classifiers are legal by current rules as short or medium stages or as standards.....

I used Steeler Standards and Area 4 Standards as a reference. At the time they were shot they were not classifiers at the Area matches they were used in. I dont have my rule book right now to quote the differences. I know this conversation came up, possibley during my RO cert., maybe not. I was not refering to any of the CM99 classifiers, what I mentioned previously did occur before the current rule book though. I understand what your saying Nik, im just not sure how under the new rule book a classifier becomes a classifier. H!

[JFlowers]

Assuming we are talking about the 12 round stage called BURN IT DOWN..... Looks like there might be and arbitration or two if someone gets an Extra Shot/Hit penalty. Based on my understanding of the rules, I have to agree with Scott R.

Edited April 21, 2009 by JFlowers

[Flexmoney]

... im just not sure how under the new rule book a classifier becomes a classifier. H!

It's gonna be rough.

[hf219]

... im just not sure how under the new rule book a classifier becomes a classifier. H!

It's gonna be rough.

Do you mean for me to understand or to make a classifier! Excuse me or do you mean both!

[Flexmoney]

Making up a classifier is a catch-22.

[JThompson]

Making up a classifier is a catch-22.

It is and it was a bitch to come up with something that was easy to duplicate and legal, when I took the CRO exam.

I also agree with Scott R... the stage is a problem.

Edited April 21, 2009 by JThompson

[Nik Habicht]

So, for years, people yammer because the classifiers don't reflect what we do in the rest of the stages. Then there are some rule changes, and they're worded in such a way as to push new classifiers closer to the rest of the stages in a match, and now we yammer that classifier design has gotten too hard?

Too hard? I didn't think those were words that USPSA competitors used......

[JThompson]

So, for years, people yammer because the classifiers don't reflect what we do in the rest of the stages. Then there are some rule changes, and they're worded in such a way as to push new classifiers closer to the rest of the stages in a match, and now we yammer that classifier design has gotten too hard?

Too hard? I didn't think those were words that USPSA competitors used......

Yes Nik. It's a bitch because you have to make something that can be easily duplicated... therein lies the issue. to comply with the rules and make it so most all clubs can set it up and set it up exactly like it is intended. I did not say I had a problem with it and I'm one of the people that thinks there should be more like we shoot in a match. What I'm saying is the design isn't as easy as one might think.

Edited April 22, 2009 by JThompson

[Nik Habicht]

So, for years, people yammer because the classifiers don't reflect what we do in the rest of the stages. Then there are some rule changes, and they're worded in such a way as to push new classifiers closer to the rest of the stages in a match, and now we yammer that classifier design has gotten too hard?

Too hard? I didn't think those were words that USPSA competitors used......

Yes Nik. It's a bitch because you have to make something that can be easily duplicated... therein lies the issue. to comply with the rules and make it so most all clubs can set it up and set it up exactly like it is intended. I did not say I had a problem with it and I'm one of the people that thinks there should be more like we shoot in a match. What I'm saying is the design isn't as easy as one might think.

I meant that a little more tongue-in-cheek than it probably came out. I've designed a classifier for the CRO course, it wasn't a picnic. But if we want better classifiers, this is probably the right road, or at least a detour that will lead to the right road.....