Benelli M1 Or Remington 1100

[ERIC]

I would like to get into 3 gun matches but I need a shotgun. My buddy has a Benelli M1 Tactical in great condition (less that 100 rounds) and would like to sell it to me. I've also been looking at a Remington 1100 Competition Master. Both are in the same price range. The Benelli holds 7 and the Remington holds 8. I'm not too familiar with 3 gun matches and don't know if the additional round is a major benefit.

Opinions, please.

[Ironman]

Eric,

It is not a major modification to upgrade the Benelli to 9 rounds if that is your only concern. I have a Benelli that I enjoy very much. Remintons are also a goog shotgun. If you do a search you will find a lot of information comparing the two.

Jim

[DaveP]

Short Answer....Benelli

Or If you want the longer answer....B e n e l l i

[ERIC]

Sorry guys, I screwed up. I meant to put this thread under "3-Gun/IPSC Shotgun - Technical Discussions".

[mike.45]

Eric,

I spent months on this site sticking up for Remington and slating Benelli's however I have been re born and would have to now say go for the Benelli. There are some top Benelli shooters on this forum and you can get some real decent first hand advice on making it a top 3 gun shooter.

As some have recently witnessed Benellis do brake, despite what their sales persons claim, and you do get stoppages etc, but you get this with both manufactures. Both are decent guns, and have their pros and cons. There are many previous threads on this exact topic if you use the Forum search engine, and you will see all my misguided posts.

The gun sounds like its in good nick and getting an extended mag is no sweat at all. If you can test fire both guns and see what handles better for you that would be wise as the Remmy is a gas gun and recoil is gentle, where as the recoil is slightly stronger on the M1 being recoil operated.

Good Luck !

Mike

[rhino]

Remington! Either 1100 or 11-87.

My choice was made for me the two times I shot a Benelli M1S90, once with promo 7-1/2 loads and once with slugs. I didn't like the recoil (to me it felt like shooting a pump gun) and I didn't like the way it handled.

Me likey my 1100, though.

[Loves2Shoot]

Rhino,

No offense but the recoil of a 12 guage affecting you, even slugs? I don't get it. If your name was "twiggy" I would understand, but Rhino come on big guy, recoil shouldn't bother anyone with a name like that.

I liked my Remington, I fell in love with my Benelli.

[benelli2]

You can't go wrong either way, its like ford or chevy. I love the guys at Remington and they went out of their way to make a gun to fit the bill right from the box, gotta love support like that, I've had my Benelli so long it is like an extensioin of my body, and I hate to change, the remmy is good to go as is, the Benelli you need with a straight stock, 21" barrel and a mag tube of the appropriate length for the division you want to shoot, and an extended bolt release, and a side saddle of some type, and oh, I forget. Fact is the Remington shoots softer and comes set up, the benelli is lighter harder kicking, and requires setting up, but I love a challange. To each his own, both shoot fast enough to win!

[rhino]

No offense but the recoil of a 12 guage affecting you, even slugs? I don't get it. If your name was "twiggy" I would understand, but Rhino come on big guy, recoil shouldn't bother anyone with a name like that.

Actually, that's part of the problem. I don't move as much as a smaller person when the gun goes off, so my body absorbs more of the recoil directly since I don't "rock and roll."

Try shooting your Benelli with your back/shooting shoulder against a very solid surface like a brick wall and you'll see my point.

[DaveP]

BTW... You can get a softer recoil pad to fit to the benelli stock... Kick-eze or something like that....

[Stresspuppy]

I am looking to buy a shotgun for competitions (side matches at IDPA matches and 3 gun), and also probably use it for HD as well.

I have read much here as well on other forums about the CM and M1. Both have their followers and both have their haters. But both seem to be good guns.

To that end, I begged and pleaded with some friends to borrow their guns to take the range and try out. I went out with my old Winchester 1400 field gun (for comparison) a Rem. 870 Police (to compare the Benelli recoil to), Benelli M3 with rifle sights (couldn't get my hands on a M1 - only used M3 as semi) and a Remington CM. I took a bunch of shells in various weights and loads, from 2 3/4 dram 1 oz 8 shot game to 3 3/4 dram loads to slugs. I put about 100+ shells through the guns, mainly the CM and M3, running a quickly made up course and doing some quick target acquistion and rapid fire, as well as slug placement. Targets weren't very far (25 yrds max), but I was really just trying to get a feel for the guns and not so much the accuracy right now.

My conclusions are:

1) Just as has been stated, when the buzzer goes off, especially early in the day, the difference in recoil is not that perceptible.

2) The fit and finish on the Benelli seem much, much better than the Remington CM, though both functioned fine (had 1 failure to feed on both guns, but I am writing those off to operator error as they were in the middle of the shooting session an nothing happened before or after).

3) The pistol grip of the Benelli seemed to make moving and transitions easier for me. The CM didn't have one, though I guess you could find one and put it on.

4) The lighter weight of the Benelli helped in acquistion and moving through a course.

5) With "stout" loads, the Remington did seem to shoot a little softer.

6) I tended to shoot the CM up and to the right (1-2 o'clock) where I seemed to be more centered with the Benelli. Not sure if this is the PG or not.

7) I was able to rapid fire the Benelli faster (8 shells in 1.93 seconds, vs 2.8 with the CM). Not a comment about the gun, just what I was able to do.

8) Both seem to be good guns and I don't think a person can go wrong with either.

Now that I have information overload, I need some help. I have a few questions that I was hoping some of you, especially those that have shot both the M1/M3 and CM and help with:

Q1) What, if any, will be the preceivable difference in shooting the M1 vs. the M3?

Q2) For loading, which is easier? Faster? I notice on the CM, everything is done from underneath by the "button" and shell carrier. On the M1/M3, there is a button on the side to bring the bolt forward. CM seems it would save a step and thus be faster, but it also seems you would get used to the M1/M3 with practice.

Q3) How much better are Ghost Ring than rifle sights? This has been discussed much and I have read much of it. Just curious if there are any other inputs on this subjet.

Q4) How do the finishes of each gun hold up long term? If something happens (scratch, etc), which is easier to fix/hide?

Q5) Accessories - there are obviously MANY for the 1100 series gun, and from reading, I gather the Benelli things are harder to find. From an out of the box point of view, what is needed to start being competitive (not to the level of some of you, KurtM comes to mind as well as others I have read about)? Where can these things be found?

Q6) Mods - I have read about these as well. Again, from the out of the box perspective, what is really needed for either gun, and what are things to think about for later?

I was hoping yesterday would definitively solve my problem and I would be ready to buy something, but I seem to still be waffling. I am leaning towards the Benelli (fit/finish, look, Name - snobbish, I know, feeling and comfort, etc), but I only plan to do this once (famous last words), so I want to feel I didn't make a mistake.

Any advice or input?? Help me before I go insane, or drive the wife insane!!!!

Thanks in advance for you help and for tolerating my plethora of questions. This is a great site and I only wish I had thought to come here before I did!!

[Flexmoney]

StressPuppy,

I merged your thread into one just like it that already existed.

[Stresspuppy]

Thanks! I thought I was losing it for a minute and that I had posted it in the wrong place!!!

[EricW]

Once people see Shawn Carlock reload, I think they'll come the realization that the 1100 (his gun of choice) is the only game in town - at least until someone figures out how to duplicate his setup on other shotguns. He can load his limited gun almost on par with the open guns - which basically means you're going to have to shoot at Warp 19.2 in order to beat his reload on short courses.

As soon as I saw Shawn reload, I knew what project gun I was buying.

[chp5]

Once people see Shawn Carlock reload, I think they'll come the realization that the 1100 (his gun of choice) is the only game in town - at least until someone figures out how to duplicate his setup on other shotguns. He can load his limited gun almost on par with the open guns - which basically means you're going to have to shoot at Warp 19.2 in order to beat his reload on short courses.

As soon as I saw Shawn reload, I knew what project gun I was buying.

So how does he reload?

[rhino]

and who is Shawm Carlock?

[EricW]

Give me two or three weeks to get my shotgun back and I'll post the technique in detail. Your gun has to be modified to use the technique, so unless you've had it done, you won't be able to practice it anyway.

The technique, roughly, involves putting the butt of the gun over your strong-side shoulder, loading port up, then pulling 4 shells at a time out of a kydex belt holder and shucking them the gun stronghand. It's incredibly fast. I know squat about three gunning, but I do know that this technique rocks for speed.

But, unless you have an easyloader and have seriously modified the loading port, fuggedabowd even messing with it. It won't work.

[kurtm]

Shawn Carlock is Evolution gun works, the technique is called the slide. This is how David Neth loads and it can be fairly FAST. As an aside Peter Runti from Finland loads this way, and he is fairly slick with a shotgun also. It is strange how certain areas "breed" certain loading techniques. The slide seems prevalent in the Idaho/Oregon areas. The flip and burn in the East and South, and the side saddle thing in Texas and Arizona, like the two Bennys and Kelly. In Colorado it has always been the weak hand loading, as well as some guys in England and Russia. For speed of loading 4 rounds I would have to say the Benelli has the edge, modified or not. On a good day I can jam 4 shells into the good old Benelli, weak handed, in the very low 3s and my all time best was 2.93. This is aimed in and going for the reload at the beep.

Trapper, as an aside, I tried that drill out at the range fairly fresh, without freezing in the Texas wind all day, and to get 6 into the gun usually takes 4.75 to 5.35. these are consistent times midday. Are you going to make it to Mississippi?? Oh yea.....go Benelli. you won't be sorry out side of the fact that the factory sure won't support our chosen sport. BTW Brownells sells almost all the parts for Benellis so life is good. KURTM

[bigbrowndog]

kurtm, i'll be there, one way or another. my entry is in, and i've got the vacation. i'm running down to shoot with benny this weekend, an make sure i've got a ride. if not i'll get with you on a rendevous spot, if the offer for a ride is still available. what i'm wondering is if you and i are shooting limited, who are the other two guys? they've only got four limited shooters signed up!

BTW, i think i can get four rounds out of the benelli, in 3 secs. if i pull the trigger real fast.

[mike.45]

I love talking loading times !!! Thread drift I know but I like to know my failings !

Kurt, are those practice times or live fire range / comp times, I can almost match them in my garage but out on the range or especially at a comp they are much slower, I realise nerves plays a lot but I figure I am not that nervous, or am I kidding myself.

At the last comp I shot in the first stage was an unloaded start stage, 6 plates at 10 meters, with a penalty target in between each, fixed time of 10 seconds, virginia count........ I know I can load 8 rounds in about 8 secs, or 6 in around 6 in my garage so I add a few secs for comp nerves so I figure easy peasy to shoot 6 plates in 2 secs / .3 of a sec to shoot each plate. Very doable in practice, and not a problem - on the day, cold start, first stage, loaded 7 rounds (always add an extra) in about 8.5 / 9 secs and only took 3 plates, just. Not good at all.

Now does one cope with the difference in mental attitude between the comfort of the practice area and open space on the range, and people watching waiting to laugh when I cock up Kurts left hand loading method !!

I was going to start a thread on this but seeing as we are talking about it !

[kdmoore]

What makes the Benelli a good competition gun?

Stresspuppy is a good friend, and trying to decide on a shotgun. I was pretty sure that softer shooting gas guns would rule the roost, but as I've looked around with him I'm surprised to see many top shooters go the benelli route.

Given that the benelli is lighter and has a system that imparts a sharper recoil, I'm curious as to what makes it a favorite in the top circles.

Seems like arrays (plate racks, lines of poppers, targets requiring double taps) would favor the softer gun. Seems like the top dogs would have reliability worked out (load selection, gun plumbing, reliability parts, voodoo, etc) so that would be a wash. Seems like pistol grips would be an easy add-on to 1100/87 based guns with all of the preban recievers to build from. Any sight could be added to either. I understand select a slug drills could favor the benny, but are they often called for in a cof? Other, normal reloading shouldn't favor either, should it?

Why do I have a feeling that I'm about to hear "it aint the arrow, it's the archer"?

That's my first guess. That with enough talent, either can be made to run as fast as the other.

Oh well, guess I'll slink back to my Saiga and practice a few reloads.

[kurtm]

Mike.45:

I have no idea about the speed of reloading durring a "comp". Very seldom do we have a COF like you describe. The only index I would have is by asking you, did that look fast? Unless I could con an RO into taking the time to review the timer, I just don't know. I would suspect it would be a bit slower, but then again sometimes the addrenilin bump seems to slow things a bit when you really are fliing. One of the stages at the Tenn Tacticle I felt like I was reloading about molassis speed, and ended up winning it by a good margin. The shooting speed for everyone was about the same but the reloading made the stage. I wouldn't have given a nickle for my chances on winning that one.

KDMOORE:

I can't speek for the other Benelli users, but to me the heavier recoil means it is over with faster. Instead of a shove, I am hit and back on target faster. Truth be told I don't really notice the recoil after the beep. Maybe the Benelli just fits me better. Also I find the Benelli MUCH easier to load than any Remmington out there, even with the flapper on the bottom. I edid try Rockin H Tacticles Gold, and I think I could get use to loading that fairly fast but would have to play with one for about a month. Limited shotgunning always comes down to reloading speed, and like I said the Benelli loads much smoother. KURT

[Neil Beverley]

I love talking loading times !!! Thread drift I know but I like to know my failings !

Kurt, are those practice times or live fire range / comp times, I can almost match them in my garage but out on the range or especially at a comp they are much slower, I realise nerves plays a lot but I figure I am not that nervous, or am I kidding myself.

At the last comp I shot in the first stage was an unloaded start stage, 6 plates at 10 meters, with a penalty target in between each, fixed time of 10 seconds, virginia count........ I know I can load 8 rounds in about 8 secs, or 6 in around 6 in my garage so I add a few secs for comp nerves so I figure easy peasy to shoot 6 plates in  2 secs / .3 of a sec to shoot each plate. Very doable in practice, and not a problem - on the day, cold start, first stage, loaded 7 rounds (always add an extra) in about 8.5 / 9 secs and only took 3 plates, just. Not good at all.

Now does one cope with the difference in mental attitude between the comfort of the practice area and open space on the range, and people watching waiting to laugh when I cock up Kurts left hand loading method !! 

I was going to start a thread on this but seeing as we are talking about it !

Mike

In the end you must simply know what you can do and then trust yourself to do it. In a competition, if you try too hard to achieve you fail to achieve.

When I was all practiced up (and younger) I had a regular drill of load 6 shoot 6 at about 7 metres. At the start both hands holding the gun at waist level and held close to the belt.

My best finish time ever was 6.31 and I was often enough around 6.5. After warming up I would take sub 7 seconds fairly much for granted. To load 6 rounds and shoot the first plate I was usually around 5.1 - 5.2 seconds and I recall that my best time to the first shot was 4.68. My actual records are at home.

I love/loved fixed time stages. Many of the UK guys don't handle the pressure very well but I shot a lot of fixed time HG stages when we still could and the times were always set very tight so I got used to it.

Aaaahh! The good old days!

To contribute to the original question I've edited this post to add that my times were with both a Remington 1100 and an 1187 and with a standard floor plate and button. None of those woosey Eezi-loader thingies for me! .

I have a M1 Super 90 as well, I was one of the first on the UK circuit to try one, but could never load it quick enough. I never really like the snappy recoil either when compared to the Remington. However, it is very much a personal preference thing and both guns are excellent.

Footnote: Ive now checked my actual times and corrected them here in addition to a new post on page 3

[double down]

For those who own or tried the Benelli and didn't like the recoil, were you using the stock recoil pad? Changing to an aftermarket pad like the kickeez turns this gun into a differen't monster. It really is a night and day difference.

[Neil Beverley]

double down

Mine only has the standard recoil pad but it's not just about it kicking harder. Hell, I started out as a pump gunner so why should I care?

It's more that I could sense the action being snappier versus the smoother gas operation of the Remy and it never felt that it "flowed" as well.