Breaking Into The Sweet 16

[Loves2Shoot]

TDean,

Nope I wasn't in his squad, but he stayed at my house and he got a raft for both his "fiascos" from me. Bill Jr, and a couple other guys that were there described both of the events in detail over dinner (between wipping up tears of laughter) If you know KJ then you know what I am talking about I believe their accounts more, thus my constant ripping of him for being a spaz

[shred]

One thing I noticed (and you can see it on the match videos) at the Steel Challenge watching the SS on Outer Limits (2 plates at 25 & 35 yards, move 2 yards sideways to another box and shoot 3 more far-off plates). Every one of them left the first box just as soon as they'd broken a good shot on the second plate. But, if they missed, there was no jerky-in-n-out of the box, they just stayed rock-steady and shot again. Excellent shot calling.

[mcoliver]

Wow! Great thread!

I saw Matt B's name in the list. Maybe BE can ask him to share his inputs being a regular here?

Oh, btw, does anybody know if the guys in the SS pour over the stage stat before shooting it? Making changes in plans depending on who's at the top of the list?

[benos]

It seems to me that the extra distance covered in order to get closer to the target is wasteful, but apparently you can make up for that time with hoser-splits and improved accuracy? I'll have to investigate this technique so I'll know when to apply it.

That one threw me for years, until I remember watching a stage that was won by (a shooter) charging the ports, while "the rest" of us shot the positions from farther back.

So (I remember posting this somewhere, long ago...) when I got home a set up a simulation.

I set up a "Z combo" about 10 feet behind a port in a wall, which was maybe 18" square. Then I started, gun in both hands, arms at approx 45 degrees, at 25 yards and timed how long it took to shoot four good hits on the two targets by only moving laterally (no charging). At 25 yards, I remember this required maybe 6 or 7 yards of lateral movement in order to see both targets. Then I moved up in 5 yard increments, repeating the drill with the same rules each time. (Actually I ran each distance several times and recorded the average hit factor for each distance.) Finally, on the last drill I just ran like crazy 25 yards to the barricade and blasted the targets through the hole. Guess which gave the best hit factor? You are correct! - The charge. I was pretty much blown away by the result. And it did permanently alter the way I approached stages. Oh, and guess which was easiest? Correct again.

(This test was simulating that you had to move to and shoot from a position about 5 yards to the right of the hole in the barricade, which was like the match.)

be

Oh, btw, does anybody know if the guys in the SS pour over the stage stat before shooting it? Making changes in plans depending on who's at the top of the list?

Usually not at all. I know Robbie pretty much sized up each stage when he got to the stage for the walk through. But most everyone looks over the stages for tricks or traps that might be beneficial to practice, like weird start positions, timed strings, etc. When it got down to the last stage however, Robbie did carefully watch the other two who he was battling with. And he realized that all he needed to do was shoot. In a pressure situation like that, it's good to get started like he did - his first 4 targets were all A's. Typically, among the winners, you won't see anyone attempting to modify anything other than just shooting, until they get to the very end.

Proficiency embraces simplicity, and simple is easy.

be

[AikiDale]

Proficiency embraces simplicity, and simple is easy.

be

Now there's a quote!

[BritinUSA]

This is a great thread !

Whilst I was shooting at the nationals (don't ask how I did, it was ugly). I kept noticing the cameras that were filming all the top shooters and I was reminded of something I saw during the televised Winter Olympics. They showed the down-hill slalom and showed the winner going through the course. Then they super-imposed the 2nd place guy on the same image.

As the skiers went down the same slope seemingly at the same time, you could see how the winner was edging ahead. It was a fraction of a second at each turn. By the time they cleared the last gate and were heading to the finish line there was a 3 metre gap between the two... that's about .2 of a second at that speed. But the interesting thing was how the gap grew. It happened so gradually as to be almost imperceptible.

I think this is the same as watching the top shooters, some of them get these amazing times but there seems to be no effort and no amount of looking can tell you where they are making up the time.

But if someone mounted a camera on a non-moving platform and filmed a SS shooting a stage, then filmed a regular Master, then superimposed the two, you could see the tiny movements that make the difference.

True the mental part of this game is important and becoming more so, but that mental process has to equate to a physical manifestation or it counts for nothing. If it moves you can tape it, if you tape it and compare it then the differences (however small) can be measured.

[j1b]

This is an interesting little thread.

Tom,

In my opinion getting into the top 16, or top 8, or top 5 really has to do with consistency and confidence. Knowing what you have to do and doing it.

Things change, in the match that is. You start out a big match making sure you are "there on sunday" as Tiger might put it. Then you assess what you have to do on Sunday to move ahead or maintain.

OK - this is going to sound a little jaded because I'll have to take my own advice (yeah - someday ) but breaking the barrier is in fact a hell of a lot easier than you think. You are there - you just don't know it.

I swear this is how it'll work. You'll forget about placing in the top 10 at a match - and I mean completely. You'll start shooting, and you'll shoot well. You'll be happy, but not really attentive as it relates to the scoreboard. You'll just know that you're shooting "ok". You'll charge along, and a good ways into the match people will say things to you, but you won't really know it. I mean they'll say "wow - you're REALLY putting together a good match" and you'll say "Yeah, I'm shooting ok" No biggie though.

Then the scores will come up and poof - you're there. Top 10. Maybe top 5. Just like that.

The thing I can promise you is this. You'll place top 8 several times, and you'll see the minimal difference between you and the win. That's the part I obviously never figured out. Have plenty of top 10's and several top 5's. Not very many W's.

I guarantee you're already there - you just don't know it. Your scores indicate it, and your skills speak for themselves. You're already there.

Just my $.02

JB

[TDean]

Guess which gave the best hit factor? You are correct! - The charge. I was pretty much blown away by the result. And it did permanently alter the way I approached stages. Oh, and guess which was easiest? Correct again.

-Brian

Oh ya...that's the kinda stuff I'm talking about!

Brian, you just made me start reloading some practice rds.

Jack, I can't wait till you decide you're ready to jump in with both feet.

[j1b]

I think a bit of what I said applies to me - but not all of it. Your challenge is simply getting done what you already know how to do. Mine is trying to relearn the stuff that today is out dated.

I doubt (having shot a couple of matches over the past two months) I'm ever in the running at a big match. When I talked with Robbie the other day we discussed just that. He says maybe I'll be there again. Of course now I have a job that prohibits truly jumping in with both feet - so there are challenges.

My goal is not nearly as hefty as yours, I want to place top 20 in my next nationals. I think for me that is a stretch, but achievable.

For you (repetitious mode on) you're there already.

I don't want to shoot against you - knowing I'm going to lose isn't nearly as much fun!

JB

[TDean]

I understand your posts Jack, and thank you.

...you'll see the minimal difference between you and the win. That's the part I obviously never figured out.

Isn’t that the question of the hour......

Doing this for 3 years now, the stuff "I know how to do" currently will only put me in the top 16. That sounds neat now, but I don't think I'll ever be satisfied until I get into the 95% range of the winner's score. Is that even possible? I don't know. I do know that I haven't hit a wall yet. I’ve come away from the ’03 nationals with lots of inspiration and a bag of new tricks to try. I'm going to keep on pushing 'till I hit a barrier. Hopefully any barriers that occur before the 95% range will be mental rather than physical. If a barrier proves to be un-breechable at 89% of Robbies score, then fine...I've pushed the envelope and found my limits.

I love this game. It the coolest hobby I've ever had.

[Duane Thomas]

but I don't think I'll ever be satisfied until I get into the 95% range of the winner's score.

Why stop there?

[j1b]

I'm with Duane.

100% has a real nice ring to it.

JB

[ong45]

I am kinda in the same place you are TDean, i came in 20th at 80%( that damn Eric sure blows the curve out of the water) in the open match.

I had only one penalty for the whole match ( an extra shot on the standards) so i can't make any excuses. Watching the supersquad shoot, the biggest thing i noticed was that they shot noticeably faster than i did. I also noticed that most of them have a better hold of the gun than everone else.

I gotta believe that this tranlates to faster shooting overall.

So my project for the off season is more grip work,more trigger time. waddaya think?

James Ong

[j1b]

Just for the record, the only reason I am compelled to offer advice on this particular thread is because I've been there. I feel like I know what you and (now) James are going through. I understand that digging up every rock to find out where you are missing.

I understand that I've not been "in the mix" in some time. I know that the talent levels today are better than they were when I was in the game heavy. I still believe that the premiss is the same.

I hesitate to talk about my 94' nationals, because I don't want to be mistaken as bragging, or acting like I won a match that I didn't. But the roots of the story are what really enabled me to see the light.

94' and 95' were both pretty good years for me. Won several matches. Was third at the opens in 94', 8th and 10th respectively at the limited nationals. Generally I was shooting good.

At the 94' nationals I was not in the super squad. I was squadded with Tawn Argeris though, and we worked all the stages together. I remember countless stages that we questioned our performance. A long picket fence stage where we both shot conservatively and when it was done I know we were thinking "there's a stage we got smoked on" Still, we stuck with what we knew. We didn't have any Super Squad jitters, nor did we have the knowledge of how the super squad shot the stages. We simply did what we thought was best. On the picket fence stage - I ended up 3rd. Tawn was like 5th. I got two stage wins out of the match - neither stage felt like I was really putting the gas down. Lenny Magill got me on one stage - its on the tape - I damn near fell on my ass on the stage.

During the match I had one miss, and one stage where I had a malfunction. Neither really through me for a loop. The malfunction happened the 2nd to last stage, and I think after it I realized I wouldn't be winning, but other than that I shot my last stage ok - nothing great but ok.

The point is that during 95% of the match - I shot my game. Only my game. I had nothing else to go off of. I didn't know what the fast times were, I didn't know what the fast ways were. I only did what I knew I could do to the best of my limits. Trully I believe that is what enabled me to place as high as I did.

Two years ago I shot the AR State IDPA match and shot possibly one of the best matches of my life. Again it was a function of only doing what I knew I could. I had nobody to compare to, nothing to know if what I was doing was good or bad.

At the nationals - I never won. I lost in 94' by 27 points. But I know that by shooting my game I was capable of winning. I never did convert, but I think I was close to being able to.

That is where I believe you guys are. Instead of figuring out how to race the stage to win, it become important to shoot the stage the way YOU know YOU need to shoot it. I belive in that manner you will produce the results you are looking for.

I apologize for continuing to beat this horse, but I do know where you guys are. I know the frustration. You know you are there when you walk off a stage and a compatriot says "wow - that was a stage win" and you go " REALLY????"

Thank You

Jack

[Matthew_Mink]

That's a pretty good way to paint the picture, Jack. I don't have the match credentials Jack does (yet, hopefully) but this year when I ended up 3rd Overall in Production at Factory Gun it was essentially the same as Jack's experience. I didn't really pay attention to anyone but myself. It was only in the last few stages of the match that I realized I might do well. Then I had to put that out of my mind and concentrate on the stages at hand. When I have shot my best this year, it has always been just shooting my game and not trying to race anyone else.

[j1b]

Matthew,

I look forward to yanking the trigger with you soon.

Keep in mind - I ain't who I was (in other words I now suck) but it'll still be fun!

JB

[sincityshooter]

James, I don't think that they have a better hold on the gun. I think it's confidence and 100,000+ rounds down range. They know exactly how the gun tracks and that gives them the confidence to have .05 faster splits and .20 faster transitions. Ever watch Saul? He will "double tap" a hard cover target in what seems to be around .15. I don't believe it's necessary to have really fast splits, but it does prove what confidence can do for you. Keep shooting well and the time and the experience will add more points to every stage and shave off time. I believe it all starts with calling your shot. If you are not confident, even a little hesitation will cost at least .10 on every target. Calling you last shot will lead to an explosive first step or a fast transition.

By the way, you kicked my butt at the Nationals (actually I kicked my own butt all over the range). I learned a lot and left feeling better about my shooting because I realize that the difference between a top 16 shooter and myself is all in tenths.

Does this make sense to anyone else? I'm not a pro, but I think I'm on the right track.

[Matthew_Mink]

Matthew,

I look forward to yanking the trigger with you soon.

Keep in mind - I ain't who I was (in other words I now suck) but it'll still be fun!

JB

Jack, we're squadded together at MO Fall Classic, right?

[ong45]

Thanks for sharing your experiences Jack, you hit the nail right on the head about shooting your own game. This for me was the difference between middle of the pack A class finishes and high M finishes.

Sincityshooter, you are right about tenths seperating us from the top shooters, actually probably 2 or three tenths between us an the top 10

I have video of a bunch of the top guys shooting and not to belabour the point but the muzzle rise is noticeably less or in some cases, not there.

I know that at this point hundreths of a second shaved off every little thing is what adds up to a GM performance, i am just turning every rock over to find those hundreths.

James

[j1b]

Matthew

I had to drop out.

At first it was because I wasn't ready, but it worked out. Turns out I'm out on business that Friday and Saturday.

It'll be soon though!

JB

[Matthew_Mink]

Well, hate to hear that. But, there is always next time!

[sincityshooter]

James, are you sure there's less muzzle rise? There was a time at the Nationals when I thought my gun was all over the place. However, I had a few comments about how flat the gun was shooting and that was with a 171 powerfactor. I later realized that I was too concerned with the dot movement instead of just pulliing the trigger and calling the shots.

All those tenths add up. Getting into and leaving 2 postions could add up to .50 or more. 8 transititions could add up to .80. If there's some movers, getting the timing exactly right could be a difference of a second or more. I know that if I'm shooting well and I shoot the course of fire up to my potential, I'm usually behind the top dogs by an average of 2 seconds on a 13-15 second field course.

Are you shooting the Infinity Open or Area 2? If so I'll look for you.

Tom

[ong45]

Yep, i'll be at both infinity and area 2. See you there

James

[shred]

Don't forget points. On a typical nationals stage, every point down is another 1/8th to 1/10th second or so added to your time. The top dawgs shoot a lot of A's, every time.

[sincityshooter]

It goes without saying that you must shoot A's. I try to get 93% of the total available points on every stage. Sometimes it doesn't happen, but that's the goal going into every match. Of course some "hoser" stages I'm happy with 90% and some low hit factor stages I'm looking for 95%.