Gun Debate

[BigH]

I am a newbie shooter. I purchased a Ruger Mark III and have been going crazy shooting round through it. I have also been renting and borrowing every larger caliber hand gun I can get my hands on. I am fairly certain this gun will be a .9mm as the .40 is too much for me right now.

I am really having a hard time deciding what gun to get. I am definitely ruling out Glocks as they are not comfortable in my hand and seem to recoil more than any other gun I tried. I am not putting them down as they rate very high-it is a personal preference.

We can rule out pistols suited for carry as this is not an option I need. I am looking for target shooting with the potential to move into USPSA and lastly home defense. So a longer barrel is preferable.

My first question is-is there any advantage in going with a polymer like and HK USP or S&W M&P vs A Browning HP, CZ, or Sig Elite. I fell in love with the Sig Elite but we are talking about $1150. I would consider it but would need to hear feedback telling me that it is a tack driver and everyone cant live without it. The Browning has a great reputation amoung guys at my range.

I seem to love the feel of the heavier gun and shoot better as the recoil is less. Price is the obvious issue.

Opinions and advice is appreciated.

[Tom Mainus]

See if you can rent some different guns from the store and see what you like. Everyone is different and like different guns for different reasons. With that being said I would buy the S&W M&P 9L or a Pro in 9mm I have one and it really shoots well for me.

Tom

[BigH]

The S&W M&P 9L is priced well and is one of the easier brands to get. My local shop was telling me that many of the companies are on back order up to 6 months.

[G-ManBart]

I know what you mean about Glocks not feeling quite right....they don't fit my hand well, beat up my knuckles and point high for me. Makes me wonder why I have five of them

I'd forget about the Browning HP, Sig Elite and USP and go with either an M&P or a CZ. The Sigs and HKs are used by a few folks and there are a handful of them that do very well with them, but they are in the minority. They're more expensive and not nearly as many folks work on them. I like the HP as a design and they feel good, but I don't think they do a great job of standing up to the stress we put on them. You're also a lot more limited in the support for them.

There are a couple of folks doing great work on CZ's and they can be an excellent choice. More and more folks are offering parts for M&P's now and if you get a Pro, you really don't need to do anything to it as they have a nice trigger and good sights right out of the box. All you need to do is figure out which grip insert feels best and you're set. If you buy one now you also get two free mags. Even the shorter, standard M&P is pretty mild in 9mm and if you get ammo like the Atlanta Arms 9mm Minor stuff it's a pussycat.

I'm getting an M&P Pro for Production. It points where I expect it to, doesn't beat up my fingers and won't really need any work to be competitive. R,

Edit to add: I've been following the M&P Pro and 9L thread and last I knew the 9L still hadn't been approved for Production, but maybe that's changed in the last couple of days.

Edited March 12, 2009 by G-ManBart

[Calmwater]

If I didn't shoot Glock, I would probably go with the CZ or the M&P. I like the consistent trigger pull on striker fired and single action guns, but I really like the feel and support you would get with the CZ.

[HRider]

I have not shot an M&P in 9mm, but have shot one in .40 and it was a good shooting pistol. I know you mentioned price being a factor, but if you could try a single stack 1911 in 9mm, you might like it also. It wouldn't fit in production class, but would fit in single stack or L10. I don't think you could get one for the price of the M&P though, unless you are lucky enough to find a deal on a used one.

Hurley

[Calmwater]

A 9 in single stack or limited 10 would put you shooting minor and at an immediate disadvantage. If its what you have already and you shoot all As I say go for it but I would not buy a new single stack 9 to shoot USPSA. But hey, different strokes.........

[chirpy]

I'm an ooooold 1911 shooter! I don't like the finger grooves on the Glock! That said, the first time I was able to get my hands on a Glock 34/35 I really liked it!!!!! I might consider a Glock if I was starting over...which I'm not (TOO OLD).

FWIW

Richard

[saibot]

Your description sounds exactly what I went through six month ago. I too have the MarkIII for practice! I was planning on getting the Glock until I held one. The angle was all wrong for me and their barrels don't allow for lead (cheap) bullets. I tried the XDM9 and the M&P9 and fell in love with the M&P. It has 3 different backstraps to fit your hand and just feels right (for me). I've put over 2500 rounds through it since then and it has been extremely reliable. The only issues I've had have been from a batch of bullets I made that were too long (not the gun's fault). It has ingested everything else I've put through it and is more accurate than I am!

/2 cents.

[busyhawk]

BigH,

What Saibot says! My oldest son (16) had the same problem with the Glock grip being too big/not a good feel so a friend had him try his XD Tactical in 9mm and he was hooked! Sent it off to Scott Springer of SpringerPrecision.com (Forum Dealer) for a trigger job and now my son likes shooting a lot more. I have not shot the M&P so I have no experience so no coment either. The HP is a very good pistol but the safety sucks IMHO to enguage and disenguage. HK is another great pistol but the DA shooting takes some getting use to...I have 4 HKs...if you really are wanting to progress from this starter pistol then get a striker fired pistol. I believe going to a limited pistol after this First Pistol will be easier from a Striker fired pistol (in production)...just my thoughts.

Hope this helps,

RLTW,

Scott

[Nuke]

I, too, went through the same process around this time last year...ended up with a XD9 and love it! I've also heard good things about the M&P, but haven't shot one...

FWIW...I liked the fact that the XD came with the essentials (holster and mag holder) for USPSA...picked up the pistol, 2 extra mags and an extra mag holder (selling around here for ~$30 for the set), and I was off to the races...granted, it's not the best gear in the world, but it's definitely good enough to get you started without having to drop a lot of extra cash...

Just my $0.02...

[chrisa006]

I shoot both a Glock 35, and 34 for years. Now I shoot a Brazo and a Millinium custom. If I were going back to shoot production I would look at Angus CZs at ghostholster.com For the money you talked about you would get a gun set up for you.

Edited March 12, 2009 by chrisa006

[uscbigdawg]

Sold my G34 and miss it. That said, don't rule out the XD. I need a 9mm pistol, so I'm probably going to be picking up a CZ SP-01.

Rich

[Duane Thomas]

I might consider a Glock if I was starting over...which I'm not (TOO OLD).

You're never too old! There's always a new mountain to climb.

[chirpy]

Duane, back then starting out would have meant transitioning from a revo to a Glock which would have been much easier for me (except Glocks didn't exist back then). Until Glock makes interchangeable BS's there out for comp.

FWIW

Richard

[BigH]

Fellas,

I am the original guy that posted this topic. I am in big trouble now!! In a good way!! I went to the range last night and my neighbor who let me shoot his Colt 1911 .45 (i think the model was called the Gold Cup Trophy) with some fancy Bushnell Hologram Sight. First, I have never been able to shoot the .45 before because the Glocks, and other Polymers in including the H&K recoil ferociously and were hurting my hand. Not only the Glocks but other polymers I have tried as well-not picking on glock

I picked up his gun and immediately noticed how well the 1911 model fits into your hand. It feels very heavy and but very solid. The gun must weigh well over 3 pounds loaded. I thought to myself who would ever shoot something this heavy.

I started squeezing off rounds and could not believe how smooth this gun was shooting. The recoil was not even a factor and I was able to keep the gun on target shot after shot......As a matter of fact my groupings were so tight that the guy next to me asked me if I was practicing for a competition. I laughed as this is my 3rd week. I kept the splatter style target to show my buddies as they would never believe me. I am hooked

He told me how much he paid and after I was revived thought I need one of these. I think the gun was $1500 10 years ago and the sight was about $450

I also learned a second lesson. I had the opportunity to compare factory ammo vs. reloads. I do not know anything technical about reloading but my neighbor told me I would feel the difference as he 'softened' up the load for a smoother shot. Huge difference-less recoil giving you the ability to fire the second shot off quicker and accurately.

I am now hooked on this style. I still feel the .45 is a HUGE caliber and will likely look for the .40 due to cost.

Is there any reason to stay away from the 1911 style? Besides price

[Bigpops]

Fellas,

I am the original guy that posted this topic. I am in big trouble now!! In a good way!! I went to the range last night and my neighbor who let me shoot his Colt 1911 .45 (i think the model was called the Gold Cup Trophy) with some fancy Bushnell Hologram Sight. First, I have never been able to shoot the .45 before because the Glocks, and other Polymers in including the H&K recoil ferociously and were hurting my hand. Not only the Glocks but other polymers I have tried as well-not picking on glock

I picked up his gun and immediately noticed how well the 1911 model fits into your hand. It feels very heavy and but very solid. The gun must weigh well over 3 pounds loaded. I thought to myself who would ever shoot something this heavy.

I started squeezing off rounds and could not believe how smooth this gun was shooting. The recoil was not even a factor and I was able to keep the gun on target shot after shot......As a matter of fact my groupings were so tight that the guy next to me asked me if I was practicing for a competition. I laughed as this is my 3rd week. I kept the splatter style target to show my buddies as they would never believe me. I am hooked

He told me how much he paid and after I was revived thought I need one of these. I think the gun was $1500 10 years ago and the sight was about $450

I also learned a second lesson. I had the opportunity to compare factory ammo vs. reloads. I do not know anything technical about reloading but my neighbor told me I would feel the difference as he 'softened' up the load for a smoother shot. Huge difference-less recoil giving you the ability to fire the second shot off quicker and accurately.

I am now hooked on this style. I still feel the .45 is a HUGE caliber and will likely look for the .40 due to cost.

Big H,

Just jumping in here. I finally got to shoot my new STI Trojan , 9mm, last night. What a gun! Very accurate, shoots anything you feed it whether factory or handloads.

I started this game last year with a Sig 226. From there I went to a XD and loved it. I also have the 34. But FOR ME, if I had to choose one gun for IDPA it would be the Trojan. I would even, and will, run it in USPSA but my 40 Brazo's is what I mainly use for that game.

So yes, try the 1911's. Nothing against the other guns but man are 1911's sweet!

BP

Is there any reason to stay away from the 1911 style? Besides price

[Bigpops]

BH,

Somehow my reply wrapped with yours. Read the bottom carefully and you will see what I just posted.

BP

[sslav]

A 9 in single stack or limited 10 would put you shooting minor and at an immediate disadvantage.

I disagree. Depending on the course of fire you could have quite a bit of an advantage in having 10+1 over 8+1 or even 9+1. While the rules state that you should not be required to take more than 8 shots from a single position, there are frequently opportunities to do so. When I started shooting SS I started noticing a lot of array of 3 preceded or followed by an array of 2 situations. With 10+1 you shoot both then reload. With 8+1 you have no choice but to reload between the two (and then you still don't have enough rounds for another array of 3 or 4). With 9+1 you are doing a slide lock reload.

[G-ManBart]

Fellas,

I am the original guy that posted this topic. I am in big trouble now!! In a good way!! I went to the range last night and my neighbor who let me shoot his Colt 1911 .45 (i think the model was called the Gold Cup Trophy) with some fancy Bushnell Hologram Sight. First, I have never been able to shoot the .45 before because the Glocks, and other Polymers in including the H&K recoil ferociously and were hurting my hand. Not only the Glocks but other polymers I have tried as well-not picking on glock

I picked up his gun and immediately noticed how well the 1911 model fits into your hand. It feels very heavy and but very solid. The gun must weigh well over 3 pounds loaded. I thought to myself who would ever shoot something this heavy.

I started squeezing off rounds and could not believe how smooth this gun was shooting. The recoil was not even a factor and I was able to keep the gun on target shot after shot......As a matter of fact my groupings were so tight that the guy next to me asked me if I was practicing for a competition. I laughed as this is my 3rd week. I kept the splatter style target to show my buddies as they would never believe me. I am hooked

He told me how much he paid and after I was revived thought I need one of these. I think the gun was $1500 10 years ago and the sight was about $450

I also learned a second lesson. I had the opportunity to compare factory ammo vs. reloads. I do not know anything technical about reloading but my neighbor told me I would feel the difference as he 'softened' up the load for a smoother shot. Huge difference-less recoil giving you the ability to fire the second shot off quicker and accurately.

I am now hooked on this style. I still feel the .45 is a HUGE caliber and will likely look for the .40 due to cost.

Is there any reason to stay away from the 1911 style? Besides price

There really isn't any way to tell because there are so many variables that nobody really knows what you just shot. A standard 1911 with a big/heavy optical sight slapped on it fed bullseye ammo (read very mild) isn't going to have much recoil at all. It wouldn't be something you could use in a USPSA/IDPA match so it really doesn't compare. Most 1911s that people shoot in Single Stack weigh somewhere in the ballpark of 40oz give or take a couple either way.

It sounds like you're recoil sensitive at this point (common for lots of new shooters) and pretty much anything .40 or bigger shooting Major ammo is likely to be more than what you'll be comfortable with at this point. It might be smart to stick with something softer shooting until you're more experienced....which means Minor ammo, which means 9mm is the smart choice (cost and ability to use factory ammo). That pretty much points you to Production division. No equipment race, lower cost of equipment and a very level playing field. R,

[G-ManBart]

A 9 in single stack or limited 10 would put you shooting minor and at an immediate disadvantage.

I disagree. Depending on the course of fire you could have quite a bit of an advantage in having 10+1 over 8+1 or even 9+1. While the rules state that you should not be required to take more than 8 shots from a single position, there are frequently opportunities to do so. When I started shooting SS I started noticing a lot of array of 3 preceded or followed by an array of 2 situations. With 10+1 you shoot both then reload. With 8+1 you have no choice but to reload between the two (and then you still don't have enough rounds for another array of 3 or 4). With 9+1 you are doing a slide lock reload.

You can disagree all you want, but if that were true, the top shooters would be doing this. Why? They're already shooting mostly A's so they'd be hurt less on points than the average shooter. Sure, from time to time, on a particular stage, it might be an advantage, but not normally.

[sslav]

You can disagree all you want, but if that were true, the top shooters would be doing this. Why? They're already shooting mostly A's so they'd be hurt less on points than the average shooter. Sure, from time to time, on a particular stage, it might be an advantage, but not normally.

I know that most top shooters shoot major in Limited & Limited 10. Is that also the case in single stack?

What is true for top shooters is not necessarily true for average shooters.

[badchad]

Is that also the case in single stack?

Overwhelmingly I believe.

[sslav]

Is that also the case in single stack?

Overwhelmingly I believe.

Looking at SS Nationals that seems to be the trend. In 2006 there were 19 shooters including two in top 10 shooting minor (though whether by choice or due to chrono is an unknown factor). In 2007 The number was down to 16 and none in the top 10. In 2008 it was down to 12, still none in the top 10.

[G-ManBart]

Is that also the case in single stack?

Overwhelmingly I believe.

Looking at SS Nationals that seems to be the trend. In 2006 there were 19 shooters including two in top 10 shooting minor (though whether by choice or due to chrono is an unknown factor). In 2007 The number was down to 16 and none in the top 10. In 2008 it was down to 12, still none in the top 10.

If they tracked the cartridge stats it would be more clear. I'd be willing to bet that a larger percentage of the folks shooting minor at the SS nats were doing so unintentionally. The only time you're likely to see it intentionally is when they're shooting 9mm or 38 Super to take advantage of 10 round mags. Nobody makes a 10 round .40 mag, so shooting .40 minor would be really dumb. .45 minor would be even more foolish.

As I mentioned earlier, one of the top shooters would be less harmed by minor scoring than an average shooter because the top dogs are already shooting mostly A's....and we generally don't see them shooting Minor. That isn't true the farther down into the field you go, so the points loss will hurt them even more.