9mm 'covert' Carry Carbine For Police Use

[mike.45]

Dear all,

I realise Brians site is about competitive shooting but with all the wealth of knowelege here I thought I would still ask.

A friend is looking to replace the MP5k's they use for covert protection carry with a more concealable model for protection work. The only draw back is that it has to be 9mm and accurate up to 50m for tight shots, and naturally concealable under a jacket.

Selective fire and fully auto is OK - any ideas ??

Cheers

Mike

[Julien Boit]

Maybe a MP5 PDW would do the the job.

The advantage over the classic MP5K is the collapsible shoulder stock.

It would greatly enhance "long shots" accuracy.

[mike.45]

cheers for your reply Julien, but they already have those, and also the MP5K with the collapsing stock - PDW style and MP5 style and they want more !!

I have been racking my brains to come up with a decent alternative to put to him. I like the Colt 635 in 9mm but again it seems a bit bulky and if an aimpoint etc is put on the picanniny then you loose the iron sights. Beretta have bought out a new pistol mag fed 9mm carbine > I played with one a week ago and it seemed nice but they dont make a compact model yet, and I dont think it is select fire.

I am pretty stumped at this one !

Mike

[Flexmoney]

G18

[EricW]

Just out of curiosity, what besides size is "wrong" with the MP5? Not that I'm in any way an expert, but I can't think of anything besides the G18 either. You sure as hell don't want a pocket UZI for that kind of work...

This will probably sound stupid, but what about an S_I Limited-style blaster in 9mm with a co-witnessed Doctor? It's the only thing I can think of that's going to be more concealable than a compact sub gun and have the mojo to be 100% confident at 50 yds.

[Vince Pinto]

Mike,

I second Flex's motion - the Glock 18 is the way to go for maximum concealability while retaining excellent accuracy and a high rate of firepower. A G17 magazine in the gun (17+1) with two spare 31 rounds magazines gives you 80 rounds of protection.

Also, since the G18 can easily (with training), be fired with one hand, you still have a spare arm to move the client.

If you wanted something a bit larger, consider the Uzi.

[mike.45]

Cheers guys,

I must confess I dont know the answer to this either - and I suspect there isnt a real alternative out there at the moment.

His standard side arm is the G17, that would make the G18 a real contender re training, mags etc however what they are looking for is a primary weapon that can adaquately deal with a threat 50m out accurately in a relatively (non ipsc) trained hand in the 9mm para caliber.

I have been trying to push him towards .223 and the H&K 36C is arriving soon for his team, but it is not concealable enough. The HK53 in .223 is an obvious choice, and they have used them but they are looking for a replacement in the 9mm field as well. I would suspect the G18 would not be considered 'substancial' enough as a carbine for the budget holders to fork out on, and they wouldnt consider an alternative 'handgun' as the training needed to make the average LE officer good enough to use it at 50m would be unviable, when they already carry a world class G17.

Does anybody know what the likes of USSS use as a covert sub gun? At a guess I would say the 5K or PDW as these are the obvious choices.

At the end of the day the H&K range are world leaders in this field and I think the alternative is being sought to try and keep up with technology, but I dont think the technology has quite caught up with their expectations !!

Mike

[Flexmoney]

There is a shorter version of the Colt you mentioned earlier.

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg35-e.htm

Some other SMG's there as well. One of the Russian guns folds up like a box of girl-scout cookies.

I'll bet a Google search for SMG's would turn up some more picks.

[TBF]

I'm not much of a subgun guy,

But without being restricted to civilian legal options, you could attatch a stock to that G18, and make it much easier to hit 50 yd. targets. I have seen a folder in a magazine that fits Glock.

Travis F.

[mike.45]

Thanks Flex,

I was checking out that site earlier today whilst Google'ing like crazy. They apparently do one without the carry handle with a flat top. If they did one without the front sight and some simple battle sights to go with the aimpoint etc then it would be a good choice.

TBF

I checked Glocks website but couldnt find a stock, which I assume is like a VP70 stock for it.

I appreciate the help guys

Mike

[Jasonub]

I dont know if they are still selling the beretta 93 R. If they do its a good option, 20 rounds or 15 rounds with a detachable stock

[rhino]

The Glock 18 is an obvious choice as others have mentioned . . .

I don't know what the US Secret Service carries now, but in the past they carried the smaller version of the Uzi. Not the tiny micro, but the mini that's in between the tiny and the full sized carbine-style Uzi.

The FN P90 might be an option. I've never seen one in person, but they are a different shaped than the MP5 series and most conventional subguns. The FN pistol that shoots the same ammo (the 5-7 or something like that?) would make an obvious companion.

Steyr makes a small subgun. They also sell it (or sold it) as a big semi-auto pistol, but that version lacks the foregrip.

The Ruger subgun that is actually the latest incarnation of the Uzi design is another possibility.

You could go "old school" with something like the Czech Skorpion . . . if you can still get them (or any of the above, for that matter).

[Flexmoney]

http://www.ccfa.com/glock.htm

[kellyn]

If you want to hit stuff UNDER STRESS at 50 yards, get a rifle. and not an HK(can you say clunker, either the 91,93,G3, 36 etc, etc,), get an M4, or a shorty FAL.

Let's be honest, most targets (even paper targets, standing still) are quite safe from a skorpion, MPK, G18 or Beretta 93 at 50 yards.

[ErikW]

mike.45:

has to be 9mm and [...] naturally concealable under a jacket.

kellyn:

get a rifle [...] get an M4, or a shorty FAL.

Trenchcoat maybe, jacket no, and not a 9mm.

[Flexmoney]

If you want to hit stuff UNDER STRESS at 50 yards, get a rifle....Let's be honest, most targets (even paper targets, standing still) are quite safe from a skorpion, MPK, G18 or Beretta 93 at 50 yards.

That makes more sense than anything else I've heard.

[Skywalker]

Mike,

if the major concerns are size and the possibility of controlled bursts (3 rounds each burst), I'd rather prefer Beretta R93 over Glock 18.

Heavier setup, 3-rounds limited burst are the advantages over the G18.

Beretta too has the possibility of a foldable stock, besides it sports a forward handle to better control recoil.

Here you are a link to tech specs and photo gallery.

The only drawback is that it is currently out of production.

[Julien Boit]

If they were not stuck with the 9 mm, I would say go for the P90, just like the USSS did.

[Patrick Sweeney]

I teach LE in an area much like what you're asking about, and I think they're asking for too much. they seem to want:

Concealability

9mm

High hit percentage at 50 meters

Low training requirements

And they can't have all of them.

If they can give up the 9mm, the P90 (I shot one at the plant in Liege, even spent time in the assembly area putting one together) will do the remaining three.

If they insist on the usual (low) LE training requirements, they have to give up concealability.

Going to a g18 gives up the 50 meter hit percentage.

If they keep the first three, then a optics-equipped S_I in 9mm could do it.

But all four, not possible.

[rhino]

Another advantage of the P90 (and its handgun companion, the 5-7), is that the ammo will easily penetrate soft body armor. It's also probably less likely pentrate as far as handgun ammo in building materials and such (for when the shooter misses), much like a 55gr M193 from an AR.

Being a mere peasant American, I've never had the chance to handle or fire one, but from what I've read, the P90 seems like an excellent choice to fill the gap between the handgun and a serious carbine/small rifle like the AR15 and its many incarnations.

[mike.45]

Cheers guys for all your input,

I agree the P90 is a good choice and they have even looked it over, but sadly for reasons I cant discuss here, the caliber and alternative 'obsolete or conterversial countries of origin' weapons are not suitable. I agree with the rifle choice...I also agree with the 9mm caliber unsuitability.... and that they are asking too much aspect !!!!

I think I knew the answer before I asked it, but knew you guys with the wealth of knowelege you have would be able to confirm my suspiciouns....many thanks !

Mike

[lynn jones]

i remember some time back where someone was converting a m16 to pistol length without the stock. now if i can remember where i saw it.

[Loves2Shoot]

Lynn,

Olympic Arms http://www.olyarms.com/arret.html the OA-98 Pistol. Is that what you meant?

[lynn jones]

l2s,

yes, similar, but prettier.

the caliber difference in this whole discussion needs to be addressed. body guarding is not my forte. the machine pistols seem to be the way to go. one solution would be to have different personel carry different guns. more guns, more options.

side track:

mp5s are bulky and big, yes. but they are really fun to shoot, full auto and suppressed. hee haw!!

lynn

[Patrick Sweeney]

One more note: trying to hit things with a stocked pistol isn't much easier than with the pistol alone. If you can't do it with just the pistol, the stock isn't much help. (the sight radius is the same, after all) If you can hit with a bare pistol, the stock just gets in the way.

<sigh> That damned training thing again.

As a pistol-caliber select-fire 9mm, the Beretta is not as much fun as it looks. There is just too much going on too close to my face for me to be having fun. But then, any stocked pistol has stuff flying around entirely too close to my nose for my comfort.

One drawback to the P90 is that for all its hi-tech design, it is basically a .22 Hornet. It isn't as close to the .223 as you might think. Mechanically, it does everything FN says it does. Ballistically.....