More Thoughts On Swingers

[ErikW]

Monday and today I did some practicing on a swinging target with my Limited gun. I rested the weight arm on a US Popper to activate it. Half of its arc was behind a barricade. I had a static target nearby. Because of the wait for it to first appear upon activation, I got real aggressive and went for the static between the activator and the swinger. This meant that when I got to the swinger, it was going away instead of coming in, and I had to fire two quick shots (under .25, more like mid-to-high teens). These shots were effectively point-shooting; I was lucky if I saw the front sight in there. This was just beyond 10 yards.

Strangely, my first several strings gave me pairs of As, A-C, and C-C. It wasn't until later that I started hitting Ds and missing.

Then I tried shooting one and waiting for another pass of the swinger to shoot the second. Splits of over 1.5 seconds! That's worth taking a Miss for a hoper in a 10 HF speed shoot. Is it worth hoping for a D in a 5 HF field course?

I continue to have no problemo whacking swingers with the Open gun. Should I try a target focus on swingers with the Limited gun?

[Flexmoney]

I'm not one for chasing the swinger with a target focus, but it can't hurt to try it out in practice.

Goto go with whatever turns in the best hitfactor (consistently), right?

Might try throwing just one hit on the static paper too. (try everything)

Hit the popper low (slow activation).

Hammer it high (fast activation).

[Garfield]

I don't have enough experience with moving targets to add something at this point, but I am very interested in this discussion !

[mcoliver]

Where's the second shot landing in relation to the A hit?

One thing I've learned about shooting/practicing with swingers is that I can (usually) only get the first shot when the swinger is at rest (about to change directions). It's usually moving again on my second shot. So I'm practicing tracking it like an ordinary mover (that the gun never actually stops to fire the shot).

I usualy time the swinger also (how much time before it appears, total time it's available for shooting, when it will re-appear again). This way I can have an idea if it's worth waiting for it to appear or stop to change directions or engage other targets first. But I guess you already know about this stuff.

[Bear1142]

Erik,

I think this is more of a confidence issue with some emotional tendencies (kinda sounds like I know what I'm talking about ) The first couple of runs you stated you were "aggressive" (emotional state) with the swinger. You had the confidence to get aggressive and make the shots. Later in the session, I feel, you lost some of that aggression and tried to control the shots instead of being confident and letting them happen. Kinda like, you weren't shooting to hit the targets, you were shooting not to miss them, and in the end, that fraction of a second delay trying to control the shot, caused some D's and misses.

I'm not sure about the "hit factor" arguements, but I do know this. You can't go to a "major" match, shoot conservatively, and win. There may have been a time you could do that, but not in today's game. There are too many good shooters that are going to lay it all on the line at every opportunity with the knowledge and confidence that there are going to be some crashes, but there are also going to be some burns, and the burns will be significantly more than the crashes. Look at Taran Butler, Phil Strader, Blake Miguez, Emmanuel Bragg, Adam Popplewell, JJ Racaza, Chris Tilley, etc..., these guys are flying at speeds that would make a F-16 pilot jealous. At the FGN's, I watched Blake absolutely CRUSH a stage. Nobody had any business going as fast as he did on that stage. He ended up winning the stage, but more importantly, he beat Todd Jarrett (2nd on stage) by over a second on a 7-8 second speed shoot. When you beating the top GM's in the country by 2-3 seconds on speed shoots, you're laying it on the line. Being conservative and gaming the hit factors may help catch a few people, but in the end, I don't feel its the way to go. I used to define a successful match as a clean match. I'm now redefining that to a "burn to crash" ratio of 4 to 1, when I choose to go into that mode. I've realized that you can't "burn" everything and not crash once in a while, so I've allowed the "crash" to figure into my definition.

As a side note, I don't believe in shooting emotionless. I believe having a certain amount of emotion helps, but it is a double-edged sword. Too much emotion can hurt your perfomance. The tough part is getting the right amount for a given situation.

Erik (the proper way to spell the name )

[Flexmoney]

I think this is more of a confidence issue with some emotional tendencies (kinda sounds like I know what I'm talking about  ) The first couple of runs you stated you were "aggressive" (emotional state) with the swinger. You had the confidence to get aggressive and make the shots. Later in the session, I feel, you lost some of that aggression and tried to control the shots instead of being confident and letting them happen. Kinda like, you weren't shooting to hit the targets, you were shooting not to miss them, and in the end, that fraction of a second delay trying to control the shot, caused some D's and misses.

I agree. That is what I saw in your post as well, E.W.

You can't go to a "major" match, shoot conservatively, and win.

I am going to flat disagree with that one.

Interestingly enough, I hade Blake and TJ in mind while I made my earlier post. TJ won the Lim10 Nationals (winning only 2 stages). Blake flat smoked some stages (winning 4), but the crashes (relatively speaking) really cost him.

Now...Blake at the Florida Open...wow!. That was pure burn and burn.

[ErikW]

As the target came around the right side of the wall, I tried to get it when it stopped, about fully sideways. I had a lot of hits on the left C side, which would be high when the target is sideways. (I do tend to shoot high when point-shoot-hosing.)

Later, the target had a bunch of shots in the low D area. This is something I've done in the past, shooting at the slower portion of the target, closer to the rotational axis.

Shooting two quick shots, one pretty much guaranteed an A or C, and the other a classic hoper, goes against everything Brian says about calling your shots.

[Bear1142]

Flex,

Once again, we find ourselves on opposite sides of the fence. Maybe American Shooter can do a "Crossfire" type program for us? I had not looked at the FGN results when made my earlier post, but I just went back and checked on some things. You are correct that Todd only won 2 stages, but he also finished 2nd on 5 stages and 3rd on 1. That comes out to a top 3 finish on 8 stages, just about half the match. That is not shooting conservatively, considering the level of competition. Burning or laying it out on a stage doesn't necessarily mean you have to win the stage. There are always other guys that are going to get that one stage where the stars and moons align, and they nail a stage. Check out some other matches and you'll see some M, A, or B class shooter win a stage. They just nailed one. I think if you're finishing top 3 on stages at major matches, your at the upper edge of your ability.

Allow me to make some clarifications. "Burning", to me, doesn't mean going 110% of your ability. It might, but I think when your get marginally out of your comfort zone your getting into your "Burn" zone. In Erik's example above, if that had been an actual stage, and he shot it the way he described his first runs, I would tend to think he'd feel like he burned it. He point shot the swinger and had a "hoper" going after it. He was out of his comfort zone and getting aggressive, or pushing, or burning, whatever you call it, but it was not conservative. Conversely, "Crashing" doesn't mean taking 3 misses on a stage. I think if you have one miss, you crashed. Blake did burn 4 stages, but he also crashed hard on some stages, too hard. I think if he would have had some less "severe" crashes, things may have been different. Blake could have run 95% or 98% (subjectively), instead of 110% and done better. He'd still have been outside his comfort zone and may have still had a miss, but it might have been less severe. I appreciate this gets into pure speculation, but I think this is more about mind-set than hard numbers.

I also checked on the finishes of the shooters I previously mentioned. 2nd, 4th, 5th, 7th, and 9th, and Adam (9th), I believe, had some gun problems. Even if you don't subscribe to this particular philosphy or mind-set, the results speak for themselves, it has some merit. One idea I'm also contemplating is that this is more of a growing process than a mind-set. Maybe its a process by which the individual shooters ability is in a growing phase and he's subconsciously searching for his new boundaries and comfort zones, but thats another topic.

Erik

[benos]

You can't go to a "major" match, shoot conservatively, and win.

I have to disagree on that as well. It depends on your skill level. I've watched The Jet shoot, for him, conservatively, at the Steel Challenge - and fry everybody.

Couple swinger thoughts...

On a close (under 10 yds), fast-moving swinger, practice - look to and follow the center of where you want to hit, but don't look so hard that you lose track of where your gun is pointed. When "looking just right," you'll get the feeling that your gun and the target are moving as one unit, which will allow the ever-important critical aspect of "knowing you are hitting what you are shooting at" to manifest. Thereby eliminating the need to wonder. In this case, wonder whether you hit the target, which le(a)d to wonder number two - whether you should just crank two shots at it and hope you at least hit one.

The trick to the "looking just right" thing is that it keeps your gun moving with the target at all times - especially during that extremely critical moment after the first shot and before the second.

I've noticed that the mind kinda secretly wants to "shoot two shots at a single, stopped target." When actually it's more beneficial to think of it like a shotgun clay target - even if it looks as if it's flying straight away from you, never forget that the target is ALWAYS MOVING. So your gun needs to be.

be

[Detlef]

I find that, at least at my level, shooting swingers successfully is more of a confidence thing than almost any other type of target. The deal is, even *if* you know where your shots went, you may be deprived of the chance to do something about it (shoot again) because the swinger is now gone and waiting might take way too long to improve your hit factor. On most swingers, I now shoot conservatively (at my skill level, you have to know where yours is). E.g., in teh scenario that Erik described, I'd go popper, swinger (two A hits), stationary target. Except for very close and/or very slow swingers this almost always pays over hurrying over to the swinger from a stationary that you engaged in between actrivator and swinger.

The key is shooting conservatively at your level, whatever that might be. Getting in a rush almost never pays on swingers, at least not when you consider that you have 10 or 20 of them in a big match. Getting lucky once is *not* a success if you crash the next 10 times...

--Detlef

[ErikW]

Today I set the swinger at maximum speed and shot it from both left and right sides of the barricade. Even blasting teen splits with my Open gun, I couldn't get two hits in one pass from 10-15 yards.

At the Crazy Croc, some nasty designer put a max-speed swinger between two stacks of barrels, so it was only visible at full upright. I'd say it was visible for .30-.40 of a second. Hardly anybody was getting two shots in one pass.

Moral of the story, sometimes you have to wait for another pass.

[Loves2Shoot]

That was a nasty swinger, got 4 hits waiting for it to pass twice, but I shot at it 6 times (2 sets of triple taps). I just figure the HF and figure if it is worth a miss or wait for it to come again. I HATE swingers. But I figure it is better to be patient with them, since everybody else has to also.

[scooterj]

More times than not, there will be other static targets that can be engaged while waiting on the swinger. I watch the time it takes for the activator to fall and get the swinger moving, then decide if I go for the swinger or one or more statics before the swinger. Like it was mentioned before, you need to know what "you" can do. Blake was a 12 year old kid when he started shooting with us and I was lucky enough to see his progression. Just because Blakey can do it doesn't mean that I can. By the way, Blake's little brother, Ridge, is well on his way to be a force to be reckoned with.

[Jasonub]

In the Philippines, even in club level shoots, the stage designers usually set up swingers double or even 4 swingers at the same time with 1 or 2 activators.

Whats worse is that they put inside a window so it will be more difficult.

The last level 2 shoot i shot had 2 swingers with one activator and was set at 25 yards behind windows. Difficult and hard as hell but fun and sadistic

I even shot a stage that had a mini popper out 40 meters ( yes 40 meters) and behind these poppers are no shoots Most opted to go prone on the stage and still hit the no shoots

[SmittyFL]

I think the most important aspect, as has been mentioned, is know what you can do. For example: set an 8 or 10 inch plate at 10, 15, 20, 25 yards and see what your splits are. Once you know what your aimed, solid splits are at different distances then you just have to time the swinger exposure. Then there is no guessing, you know what your splits are for solid shots at that distance. You can then decide how to play it. If there is enough time for your splits, you now have confidence you can make the shots. If there isn't enough time you can decide to "hang it out", or wait for a second fly by. But I think the main advantage of knowing is you don't have the doubt or wonder......you are either confident you can make the shots, or you know you're pushing it......either way, at least you know.

[Steve Anderson]

I made the most progress on swingers when I learned to keep the gun moving and just see what I needed to see.

I don't really have an agenda on how to shoot them, I just try to watch the dot and call the shot. I used to try to decide whether to trap or track, but that indecision led to panic and hopers.

(caution, open gun biased humor ahead)

With an unnecessarily primitive gun without a red dot, I can offer no advice at this time.

I did build a dry fire swinger after several misses at major matches, and this is where I learned what I need to see. I do lots of dry drills on that, bill drills with/without reloads, 2 reload 2, and a bunch more. I cut the d zone off and shoot it at 10 yards.

The one that makes me go buggy is 1 body/1 head repeat. Yowza.

SA

[Steve Anderson]

BTW,

shooting at 110% or any other conscious effort to dictate speed or aggression has been disastrous for me. I'm just not that lucky of a guy.

Any preconceived notion of how fast I'm going do something just increases tension and reduces vision.

I was fortunate enough to get to discuss this with Max Michel while calling to order a part and his perspective was very helpful. he said you just have to shoot your game regardless of what's going on around you, especially when preceded by another top shooter. Learning to do this is what helped him to start winning instead of being 3rd, 4th etc.

This correlates well with my experience locally, I just have a hard time with my noggin at the majors. 04 is the year...

After this conversation, I was inspired to go to a bowling pin and shoot the best time of my life...just watching the dot and calling the shot. I shall strive to stay enlightened a little longer this time.

Steve

[tightloop]

"...with an unnecessarily primitive gun without a red dot..."

Steve, Please

Classic certainly, primitive never

[chp5]

you just have to shoot your game regardless of what's going on around you, especially when preceded by another top shooter.

That is great advice that applies to shooting AND many other life events as well.

[Steve Anderson]

Cy,

When Max tells you to just shoot your game, that adds some weight to what you already know you should be doing.

Mr. Sunshine,

(more open gun biased humor ahead)

You were warned that open gun biased humor was iminent and chose to proceed at the risk of your own offense.

SA

[pwalker]

One drill that I found helped me with swingers (I used to be "completely" hopeless at swingers - now I have progressed to "occasionally" hopeless), is to set up an activator and a slow swinger that is visible for about 60 percent of its swing. Fill your biggest magazine with rounds. Shoot the activator. Then shoot two rounds into the swinger everytime it appears until your magazine is empty, following the movement of the swinger with your sights/dot. After a couple of shots, you get into the rythmn of the swing. Then count the holes. When the number of holes equals the size of your magazine minus one, your confidence increases dramatically. Then adjust the swinger's balance for a faster speed and do it again. When you can do this drill on the fastest swing speed and get 100% hits, you'll never fear a swinger again... maybe...

This drill can also show up a pattern of hits on the swinger which can tell you, like it did for me, that you are aiming too low on the swinging target. I think that, in my case, I was subconsciously aiming low beacuse the lower part is moving slower and looks wider. My group of hits were all low and to the left, mainly in the lower left C/D area. I now try to aim at the top right of the A zone on a classic target.

Regards

Peter

[BSeevers]

For me swingers are about calling your shot and confidence. You must also know your abilities(breaks and splits) and apply them. I have shot a very few swingers that require 2 passes but they are there. There was one at the Nationals a few years ago. At least for mortals. Now for what it takes to place in top 10 at a major. Everything mentioned, grasshopper.

[ErikW]

Update...

I haven't missed any of the previous half-dozen or so swingers I've encountered in matches with a Limited gun. Though I've come close with some ugly D hits. The difference is moving the gun for the second shot.

[benos]

The difference is moving the gun for the second shot.

Bingo.

We highly discourage the "one-aim-two-pulls" technique on static targets, right?

So how much worse could that be on a swinger?

It's like a "straightaway" from station 3 on a trap field - you'll break more targets if you never forget that the target is always moving.

be

[ErikW]

Oh, I was using two sight pictures. But between the second sight picture and its bullet nearing the target, the target had moved elsewhere.