What if feeling is more important than seeing?

[GlockerJeff]

In Lanny Bassham's book "With Winning In Mind" he says " If your way of performing is unique-no one else in the world performs like you-and you're the world champion, that's called innovative. But if you look different from everyone else in the world and you're not the world champion, thats called naive." Thought of this while reading these posts.

[Flexmoney]

I hope we didn't kill off the discussion. It's a good topic. Much better (for some of us) than the gear-queer topics we see so much of.

[HoMiE]

Sometimes in practice I will run through a mini stage and just try to go through it as fast as I can to get a feeling of what it is like. What does it 'feel' like, how is my footwork, what did my hands/grips feel like, where do I need to be smooth, where can I hustle to next spot, etc. I do that a couple of times to try and get a baseline timewise. Then I will go through same stage just worrying about trying to call each shot. It always surprises me when it is quicker to use your 'vision' and the physical feeling just feels smoother to me. Plus the hits are usually better. The again, in match situation you only get one chance to run the stage at real speed, but I think it is good to try different things out and find out for yourself what works and what doesn't.

[XRe]

The again, in match situation you only get one chance to run the stage at real speed

Really?? Usually, I've run a stage at real speed several times before the final, deciding run... (remember, well done visualization is real, as far as your subconscious is concerned... ). Not to mention that you're free to move at whatever speed you desire during walk through (again, that visualization thing comes into play). Something to chew on, anyway

[Calamity Jane]

I hope we didn't kill off the discussion. It's a good topic. Much better (for some of us) than the gear-queer topics we see so much of.

I'm marinading your words in my mind. Those words were meant to "enrich and tenderize". I just need a little time to let that soak in.

We're just getting warmed up. I've got more to say

Need to think some things through a little bit.

[HoMiE]

The again, in match situation you only get one chance to run the stage at real speed

Really?? Usually, I've run a stage at real speed several times before the final, deciding run... (remember, well done visualization is real, as far as your subconscious is concerned... ). Not to mention that you're free to move at whatever speed you desire during walk through (again, that visualization thing comes into play). Something to chew on, anyway

I guess what I meant to say is only one chance for score.

[Jake Di Vita]

I should add that I'm a firm believer in depending quite a bit on feel while I'm shooting (or doing anything else for that matter). All I'm saying is there is no reason to exclusively rely on it, and the more feedback you can get from all of your senses, the more aware you're going to be.

[benos]

Driving to a match somewhere, listening to satellite radio country station, and hear a line in a song: "If You Look A Little Less, You Might See a Whole Lot More". That struck me in Zen sort of way that had nothing to do with the rest of the song.

SOOOO...what if vision in itself is limiting? What if I've been short changing my shooting experience by not being totally tuned in to feeling?

Focus in itself is limiting. Don't think about vision so 1 dimensionally....vision is only a portion of awareness.

What if one "amped" up their physical awareness to a point where it almost dominated their visual awareness?

That's my point. I don't differentiate between the two. Awareness is awareness - regardless of where it comes from. Vision is just the avenue which gives us the most feedback while we shoot - and is 100% reliable and repeatable under match conditions. If it isn't repeatable, I don't want to use it come match time.

I should add that I'm a firm believer in depending quite a bit on feel while I'm shooting (or doing anything else for that matter). All I'm saying is there is no reason to exclusively rely on it, and the more feedback you can get from all of your senses, the more aware you're going to be.

All good stuff. (Or at least I agree anyway.)

Here's another example...

I shot 3 targets at Nationals without a scope (no lens in the c-more)...one target at around 15 yards and the other 2 at 7 yards with no shoots covering half of them...got all my hits.

That was not shooting by sight. What was that? Where was I shooting from? Was I shooting from body awareness?

OK maybe it was just luck.

But what if I was shooting from a place that transcended sight? Does that place exist?

Which leads me back to the question....what is beyond sight? We need sight...but what's beyond it?

Am I dancing around the concept of "knowing"??? Is that what I'm lurking about for? Is that what I'm trying to understand?

Is "knowing" what is beyond sight and body awareness?

You might be killing what you are learning by feeling by trying to analyze it. Just ask the "little voice," that's never wrong, what should I do?

If you're not familiar with MBTI (Meyers-Briggs Type Indicator), I'd recommend picking up a book on the topic. The original "Please Understand Me" by Keirsey and Bates is a good place to start.

When making decisions, people tend to lean either toward trusting their feelings - what "feels" right, or "what should be done" (thinking). Knowing which way you lean can shorten any learning curve. Because if you know you are a feeler, you won't waste our mental energy thinking when you should or could be feeling. Or if you rely more on objective thinking when deciding what to do, trying to be too touchy-feeling will weaken your intellectual impact.

Either thinkers or feelers can be equally successful, in most physical activities. Robbie is a feeler, Todd J and the Burner are thinkers.

If you google MBTI Temperament, you'll find all kinds of stuff. And I have a few resources on my Links Page.

But note: someone told they took one of the test and it crashed or somehow didn't return the results. And I never went and tested any of the tests myself. And it's been awhile and I forgot about it. So if that happens please PM me and I'll remove the link.

be

[benos]

And as Jake has warned, the more you try to think about what occurred to you through an awareness called feeling, the farther off your path you will get.

I reached a point where I stopped analyzing and separating what is actually indivisible - awareness - into categories such as "seeing," and "feeling." Eventually I felt what I saw. At that point they were not different.

be

[JasonC]

I have done my share of thinking something to death, burying it, digging it up and thinking about it some more. What's beyond seeing? As much or as little as you want there to be.

In the end, there is just the practice.

[Nik Habicht]

Vision in itself cannot be limiting, but we can place limits on it.

Really we don't want seeing or feeling to be more or less important, we want a harmony of all the senses.

I reached a point where I stopped analyzing and separating what is actually indivisible - awareness - into categories such as "seeing," and "feeling." Eventually I felt what I saw. At that point they were not different.

be

I was struck by both of these responses --- in part probably because they mirror my experience during the past year. I've noticed during the past year, as I've shot matches for relaxation from school (no time for practice) that my awareness was actually expanding. That was largely tied to seeing more detail than ever before, but not entirely limited to vision; body positioning and tension awareness ratcheted up too. The shooting requires less effort --- seems to come more organically, without thought, the target appears with an appropriate sight picture superimposed on it, the gun recoils, the sight picture reappears, the gun recoils again, I move the next target appears, and so on....

It reminds me in a way of learning to color-correct photographs prior to publication at the paper --- a process made more challenging by the fact that what I saw on my computer monitor when I was done, would look nothing like what would appear in the paper the next day. Color especially had looked terrible for quite some time when we got a new boss, who put rules for color correction into place. We followed them like lemmings and things got better.

Then, as he continued to work with us, we learned to look deeper into the images, to discover more subtleties that we hadn't been aware of. More rules were devised to improve our color rendition. There was a problem with all of the rules though --- they worked most of the time, but not on all pictures. One day I finished toning a picture, not happy with the way it looked I opened the original again in a different window, and started over discarding rules as I went.

That was the beginning of outcome-directed color correction for me. The rules were great --- they taught me how to start to see. Then, at some point they became limiting --- but my skills had grown, my tool box was larger, and I was able to step beyond them, trusting my new-found awareness.....

Go. Experiment. See how things work for you. Keep the things that work, discard the ones that don't enhance the process. Expect that what you need, will change, embrace that opportunity....

[Calamity Jane]

You might be killing what you are learning by feeling by trying to analyze it. Just ask the "little voice," that's never wrong, what should I do?

be

The little voice says.....I'm going to train my proprioception and kinesthetic awareness. There is something there that connects with me and I'm going to explore it further. I've got a list of weird stuff I want to try out in training. It's going to be fun.

I'm a ENTJ which I think means (Extrovert, intuitive, thinker, judge) The characteristics are: hearty, frank, decisive, leaders in activities. May appear more confident than their experience warrants. That's SO me

[Calamity Jane]

I have done my share of thinking something to death, burying it, digging it up and thinking about it some more. What's beyond seeing? As much or as little as you want there to be.

In the end, there is just the practice.

I have found the practice LEADS to all the good stuff...like trust and letting go.

[Sam]

Cool, this is the best thread I've read in a long time. The minds here at be.com are just amazing.

Is feeling more important than seeing?

A person that has just experienced an epiphany about what can be accomplished by feeling alone, might pose such a question. Seeing, we usually take for granted, it has been with most of us from birth. In school we are taught that we have a senses of sight, smell, hearing, taste and touch. Feeling however, is an awareness that doesn't fall so bluntly among the other senses. Then somewhere along the line we also begin to grow exclusionary. One must be better than the other!

The Master said, "Become as little children".

Why does seeing need to be relegated to second place because we are learning to feel? Heck, I'm still learning to see. Embrace them both. And any other discoveries you find along the way. Experiment with how feeling and seeing interact. You've got a new tool in your tool box, Janie. There is no need to abandon what you already had. Now, you're just better.

[benos]

Cool, this is the best thread I've read in a long time. The minds here at be.com are just amazing.

Is feeling more important than seeing?

A person that has just experienced an epiphany about what can be accomplished by feeling alone, might pose such a question. Seeing, we usually take for granted, it has been with most of us from birth. In school we are taught that we have a senses of sight, smell, hearing, taste and touch. Feeling however, is an awareness that doesn't fall so bluntly among the other senses. Then somewhere along the line we also begin to grow exclusionary. One must be better than the other!

The Master said, "Become as little children".

Why does seeing need to be relegated to second place because we are learning to feel? Heck, I'm still learning to see. Embrace them both. And any other discoveries you find along the way. Experiment with how feeling and seeing interact. You've got a new tool in your tool box, Janie. There is no need to abandon what you already had. Now, you're just better.

Glad to see you in here Sam. You're last sentence instantly reminded me of a favorite line in an Uncle Tupelo song, "Things don't get better, but some people do."

be

[Loves2Shoot]

SOOOO...what if vision in itself is limiting?

Their is a show on the Science channel called, "The Human Body: Pushing the Limits" and it goes into the brain and vision in pretty interesting detail. It talks extensively about "slowing time."

The short of it is that it seems we generally see in 28-30 frames per second, but under stress we can see 60+ frames per second, maybe as many as 90 frames per second. Stress can be introduced in may ways, and it is how we process it in competition has something to do with our performance.

I think that the vision or the ability to process light is not limiting in the time constraints of action shooting, but the ability to elevate your awareness to a point in which the brain can process the data it is receiving and make decisions based on that data is where we tend to perform well below what we are capable of.

I'm of the belief that most of our limits are based on our beliefs of what is and isn't possible. I know my best performance have been when awareness is at a maximum and expectation a minimum.

[Calamity Jane]

Interesting developments at the "Y" today.

One of the techniques I'm using to train proprioception and kinesthetic awareness is to do things with my eyes closed. Today at the Y while on the treadmill...I closed my eyes. Very interesting. When I closed my eyes and allowed myself to see nothing...just blackness...I practically would fall off the treadmill....my balance was a mess. So while my eyes were open, I looked at a fixed point on the treadmill and then observed what that looked like as I walked. Then I closed my eyes and continued to visualize that picture in my mind...and viola....my balance was better and I wasn't falling off the treadmill. SO...my balance was still dependant on sight even though my eyes were closed.

I'm going to stop there...because I don't want to over analyze...over think...ruin what I've experienced today But I did learn some stuff today that I think is going to be useful.

I'm learning through experience that sight and feeling may not be able to be separated...and that one is not more important than the other. Yeah yeah yeah...it's all awareness...I know...what I'm trying to figure out is how to train it.

More experiments to come...

[Chris iliff]

In Lanny Bassham's book "With Winning In Mind" he says " If your way of performing is unique-no one else in the world performs like you-and you're the world champion, that's called innovative. But if you look different from everyone else in the world and you're not the world champion, thats called naive." Thought of this while reading these posts.

I thought the same thing but couldn't remember where I had heard or read it. Thanks for the reminder.

I also think that feeling involves ALL senses that YOU possess. If you have two equally skilled masters and one is blind, who do you think is going to win the competition? Yes, the blind master is capable of winning, maybe even beating an equally skilled master on occassion. But, he is down one of his very important senses and wouldn't stand a chance over the long haul.

I am a feeler and perform my best when just doing that. I use the thinker side to do my stage planning. I use every sense at my disposal to capture my feelings. To answer the original question, "What if feeling is more important than seeing?" Well then one could say, if one was a "feeler",... yes, it is more important. Basically since "Feeling" is your MOJO and sight is just "one" of your five senses and not all of them, then "Feeling would be more important than sight."

On the other hand I don't see too many blind people relying on "feelings" winning much of anything in any sport.

Calamity just dryfire, practice a couple of weaknesses and kick my butt again at State. Wasting too much time on the Zen and not enough time on the shooting. Respectfully IMHO

[Calamity Jane]

In Lanny Bassham's book "With Winning In Mind" he says " If your way of performing is unique-no one else in the world performs like you-and you're the world champion, that's called innovative. But if you look different from everyone else in the world and you're not the world champion, thats called naive." Thought of this while reading these posts.

I thought the same thing but couldn't remember where I had heard or read it. Thanks for the reminder.

I also think that feeling involves ALL senses that YOU possess. If you have two equally skilled masters and one is blind, who do you think is going to win the competition? Yes, the blind master is capable of winning, maybe even beating an equally skilled master on occassion. But, he is down one of his very important senses and wouldn't stand a chance over the long haul.

I am a feeler and perform my best when just doing that. I use the thinker side to do my stage planning. I use every sense at my disposal to capture my feelings. To answer the original question, "What if feeling is more important than seeing?" Well then one could say, if one was a "feeler",... yes, it is more important. Basically since "Feeling" is your MOJO and sight is just "one" of your five senses and not all of them, then "Feeling would be more important than sight."

On the other hand I don't see too many blind people relying on "feelings" winning much of anything in any sport.

Calamity just dryfire, practice a couple of weaknesses and kick my butt again at State. Wasting too much time on the Zen and not enough time on the shooting. Respectfully IMHO

Thanks so much for your advice and opinion Chris. I will most definitely keep it in mind as I continue to train.

I wanted to share more of my journey but I'm beginning to see that's not going to be possible.

Let the show up, shut up and shoot year of 2009 begin NOW!

I'm headed to the range now for the first live fire of 2009....there will be blind folds involved....too bad you all won't get to know what happened.

[DonT]

Although I personally would have no desire to pursue this method of training, I don't see that it's going to harm anything. I don't see that it would cause you to regress in your experience level or undo any of the training that you have worked on to this point. Your not going to forget how to shoot with your eyes open. And who knows, you may actually pick up something you can use.

When someone tells me I can't do something I have to prove them wrong...You go girl

[Flexmoney]

So while my eyes were open, I looked at a fixed point on the treadmill and then observed what that looked like as I walked. Then I closed my eyes and continued to visualize that picture in my mind...and viola....my balance was better and I wasn't falling off the treadmill. SO...my balance was still dependant on sight even though my eyes were closed.

That is something I notice with other things. An example that I like to use is when reloading (I don't have a bullet feeder). I look in the bin of bullets and pick out the exact bullet that I am going to grab next. Once I locate it, I can almost always look away and still not have any problem when my hand goes to grab that exact bullet.

Good stuff. Keep sharing (it's what we are here for).

[XRe]

That is something I notice with other things. An example that I like to use is when reloading (I don't have a bullet feeder). I look in the bin of bullets and pick out the exact bullet that I am going to grab next. Once I locate it, I can almost always look away and still not have any problem when my hand goes to grab that exact bullet.

I practice the exact same thing twice on every stroke (550, no case or bullet feeder). Add into it locate station to place case, locate case to set bullet... Its a good - tiring - exercise in awareness and focus. But, it allows me to smoothly load at a 700 round/hour type of pace on that press, if I want to.